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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 6:29:31 GMT
Indeed you did laser. However that was when the system was diverse, and full of possibilities. As people jockeyed for position some gained it, and some lost it. People left, and those with position, and who had gained some influence, and authority remained, until that's all that was left. Once that happened the variables for change, and diversity shrunk. This happened slowly, over time. The system in place changed, and adapted to conform to this new paradigm, until you are left with what you have now. A micro society with its own social norms that is by its very nature conformist based, and the antipathy of a healthy society which is based on diversity of thought and opinion, with all the negatives and none of the positives of a healthy social system. You can seek to change small details of the goings ons within that society, but as the structure of the society itself is the problem no such changes are going to help improve things. It is in essences a zero sum game. Why would anyone want to play that?
I spoke of all this in my original thread, and a follow up thread, but you obviously ignored all of those and chose to throw about ad hominems instead. I am not attacking you when I say this. I don't think you know how to reply to someone who says something you don't like without ad hominem, so I won't attempt to explain this further. Discussions should not be taken personally, nor should one respond ad hominem to them.
The real world is tough. The game you are playing now is a microcosm of the world, but without the diversity of the real world. This creates numerous problems in governing and making such a micro society work. Until you recognize these 12 servers for what they are, a micro society, you are not going to even begin to understand, let alone address the problems that currently exist. And if you can't do that you've no hope of changing them. That was what I meant when I spoke of not being able to fix things, only change them.
No more ad hominem attacks, or trolling eh? Shouldn't have to ask this among a community of adults.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 6:36:27 GMT
so seeing things through a new set of eyes, and changing the dynamic of the run helps greatly. I prefer to play games to have fun, not to babysit. No one asked you to babysit, and you are quoting me out of context. My original response was talking about how new players help old ones. By giving them new eyes to see through, and letting them experience a very old run as if it was the first time. I made this very clear in my reply, and you are being dishonest by quoting me out of context in this way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 6:37:36 GMT
I don't disagree with all of the issues you bring up. The core problem I have is that where's the actual incentive to help new players get them to where they want to be? Most vets have left or quit because the server has no new content, and the ones that remain just want to maybe run some quick runs every couple of days with their same group of friends. There's not much in them to help out new players. Unless new content comes around or some system to reduce the stress of just trying to reach level 60 on a new toon without being dragged I don't think there's going to be much change. People came and left.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 6:50:28 GMT
Precisely. Add to that the inequity of more haves than have nots. I only mention this because someone else did earlier, but they got it backwards in this case. Generally you have more have nots than you do haves. In this situation it is all reversed. You have a lot more haves, and few have nots. Now use your imagination and think about how the normal every day paradigm works in regular society where you have few haves, and many have nots, and then flip it around on its head, and imagine how weird it would be were the situation reversed. Now shrink the billions in the world to a dozen haves, and a handful of have nots, and try to reckon how that paradigm might work itself out. It certainly would not be a good, or smooth operation to say the least.
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Post by woqued on Dec 31, 2015 7:19:47 GMT
Heres a story for you.
A new player joined HG. He had not played NWN in 10 years, and found HG as a way to experience some of that old sweet nostalgic gaming. Starting out, he figured tanks would probably be nice and certainly efficient toons to start with, so he made a gnoll barbarian. He studied the forums, tried to learn the game to the best of his ability while playing on his summer vacation, reading a certain Gnoll Barbarian build and studying other builds for any information. The Newbie guide he felt was especially helpful.
The new player fought through lowbie tags 1-20 alone before meeting other fellow players. In his travels He met a high leveled player - a level 63 monk! He seemed very knowledgeable on his high level character. He asked the new player if he would like some company and help. The new player was exhilirated! To find company after fighting 20 levels with a weapon he had no weapon focus for (because he didn't find proper double scimitars and he was unable to tank using one when he did). Playing in company seemed great. The player he found later turned out to be a mentally unstable douche that got banned - but that didn't slow his mission to complete quests and lowbie tags.
-fastforward-
The new player was told that tanks suck by some of the older players. The new player didn't believe them, for the build told him they are strong. The new player continued working on his Barbarian, the mighty Gnoll. Finding parties to finish the accomplishments and quests on the journey from 1-40, and eventually getting to Immortality, he started farming Feywild. For aeons. Finding it ineffective, he started shouting LL runs and being well honestly quite useless but the exp was so nice when the mighty lvl 64 shifter friend kept killing the scary desert monsters on his little flying Dragon. The little flying dragon guy also took the gnoll through the Maze, where the gnoll was so happy to see the experience coming in so much faster than in Feywild. Realizing this the new player found a better strategy towards finding experience. He started smoothtalking the other players into joining him (carrying him) through LL areas. They seemed very into running the LL runs for it was 50% extra weekend! For some reason, or the other. Exp was nice. There even was a nice veteran player who gifted the new player with two Stinger books to upgrade it into an UR subrace! How joyful it was. He even helped the new barbarian with weapons; for double scimitars didn't seem too hot in demand. There was even another helpful player willing to trade him a Crucible for a Beaker that made the barbarian feel so very strong. The barbarian felt very thankful.
At this point the new player realized that tanks are not run creators in HG endgame, but he kept on his stubborn plan to play his trusted Barbarian. After all he sometimes dealt nice damage on some mobs on some runs. The barbarian fought through many painstaking LL runs - such as duoing Beholders with another fellow lowbie character; and doing Rona with only 3 toons! It took almost a whole night, with many almost-fugues, but boy was it fun. And slow. But fun. Running these LL runs in small groups he managed to get his hands on a stat artifact, which he traded for BUR gear that he supposed would help him enter Hells at level 60. (He got totally robbed. Totally, totally robbed. But he didn't know that at the time and he was happy.)
After reaching level 60 and equipping his newly traded Burs, the barbarian entered hells for the first time. He saw the mighty flames of Avernus, the rivers taking his critical immunity away, and the abishai eating him alive. The barbarian knew just the trick from LL runs: he had endless heals to spam, and a belt to cast greater restoration with. But he did nice damage on the abishai when he wasnt heal spamming so he was a happy barbarian, quite in awe of the Avernus run. He had studied the Hells bestiary beforehand to be prepared; so it was even easier than he had thought.
Venturing deeper into the Hells the barbarian realized something awful. There were scary things he could do nothing against! There were machines going choo choo poof poof and blowing him to smithereens. He quickly learned that hitting them is bad, using Belt of Eternal Preservation for GR is good and spamming heals on top is even better.
Then there came the tears. Oh, the PH9 tears flowing down the barbarians cheeks when he, yet again, ended up spamming heals because he simply is unable to deal with the monsters he faces. They multiply! The Barbarian was feeling sad about this but he was at least not dying anymore, learning these new effective defense mechanisms. The barbarian did not dare venture deeper into hells until he learned better strategies and got better gear from doing the first three he had passed through.
But further it got worse than he thought. Fumes, these clouds doing the poof poof choo choo of the machines except less easier to spot and in higher quantity. But there were big monsters to bash! So the barbarian was happy for a time. Then the mobs turned into paragon mobs - that healed when you hit them unless you swapped weapons and it was terribly troublesome! But most of the time he dealt damage to the big baddies in noticeable amounts. But then the big monsters disappeared. There were no more big monsters to bash. Only watching other people do his work for him, but the exp was coming in and the tags were nice. He felt dissatisfied with the situation, but it seemed to be the way of the server - it was okay to be ineffective. But by the time the barbarian reached Malbolge, the sixth layer of Hells, he realized that his gear is severely lacking. The old players were right. The new player was unable to farm gear upgrades on this barbarian, but he felt so useless continuing onwards deeper.
The new player had acquired a Fallen Angel (UR Subrace), and chose to make a cleric. The new player had no idea how to make a cleric; or any caster for that matter. All the new player knew was that saves seem important, implosion kills what the barbarian can't, savedropping is good and that casters can do well alone in LL runs. That cleric build was far from perfect. It was an UR subrace toon made from scrap information regarding clerics.
-fast forward-
The UR sub cleric farmed a lot on his own. By the time it had taken the gnoll to reach level 35, the cleric was at 60. He started shouting runs a lot, even more vigorously than before on the Barbarian - and doing any runs he could find people to join him on. People seemed happy to have a cleric along for Hell runs, and the Cleric seemed very effective. Tagging or not, it was all an effort to attain experience, gear and learning the endgame. Whenever possible with anyone willing, regardless of who it was. This way he ended up meeting various interesting people who were willing to teach the new player in the true ways of Clericing, for the newcomer hadn't been able to learn everything from the various builds and guides posted on the forum, for there was so much information to process. Realizing how much information there was to digest, the ex-barbplayer studied the endgame Bestiaries on the wonderful HGwiki vigorously, doing his best to get the runs going. He even got introduced to the Abyss by some veteran players; telling him what to do. As long as the new player pretended to be listening and adapting, and mostly using Greater Restoration - a lot of Greater Restoration - the veterans seemed content.
-fast forward-
Cleric was in existance roughly 4 months total - from August to December or so. By december it had reached lvl 80, and by New Years Eve, the cleric had completed the game for most intents and purposes at x7 demi and defeated Orcus Prince alongside some rather peculiar yet friendly invisible Starcraft units. At that point it was reincarnated with two half-celestial books (that he traded for) into a Half-Celestial, finished, perfect Cleric - boosting his ac by a whopping 20 points - getting him a whole new epic spell focus, and all this other candy. Then he stopped playing the cleric, for it had completed the game on this inferior form, there seemed to be no reason to play the next one. But it was fun so he did it to help others anyway.
Somewhere along the line this new player had figured out that Bards seem good and in short supply. And apparently it is possible to reincarnate this barbarian into a Pariah...
- To Be Continued -
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 9:49:26 GMT
A nice story, and it took some time to write. Has nothing to do with this thread other than to illustrate the somewhat limited and conformist based system created when you have many more haves than have nots. Also proves rules have exceptions, but that's not news to any of us.
Limited ability to play the game as whatever you want, limited ability to gain the required gear, limited ability to find the people you would like to play with because everyone conforms to the same common denominator. Limited ability to attain the best, and limited ability to do without the assistance of the have (winners) as opposed to the have nots (losers) who actually have something to gain by helping you. Not calling anyone a loser by the way. I'm simply using it as a term to more easily identify with.
These are the kind of limits that occur in a conformist system with such a small population where everyone already has everything, and the few losers that wish to play have nothing. There is no incentive on the part of the haves (winners) to help the have nots (losers.) Nothing to be gained of any kind. They are fine with things the way they are, as they have "everything," and kind find players among their fellow haves (winners) who gain nothing out of players with a have not (loser.) Gain nothing from playing with them, nothing from helping them. Action is based mostly on incentive, and unless there is some incentive to motivate someone, generally speaking they are not going to do something.
Generally speaking people do what is in their own best interest, and exceptions only prove, not disprove the rule. Every rule has exceptions. So what.
Now when you have a world full of have nots (losers) they are going to compete, work against each others, or with each other to improve their situation. It is in their best interest to do any, or all of these things.
This game and its 12 servers are like a microcosm of the real world socially speaking, only instead of a bunch of losers, (have nots) and few winners (haves) you have a game where the majority have everything, and have no incentive to work with, or help anyone else who cannot help them in turn. What happens when you get a social system of this type? Hordes of people moving to another country where there are more opportunities.
While your story is quaint, and clearly took you some time to write, it doesn't really prove anything except that there are exceptions to every rule, but so what? We already know that. Man bites dog, bus gets hit by man, house falls on tree. Do these things happen? Sure, but they do nothing whatsoever to disprove anything, and only prove the rule.
A laser himself said, he has no real incentive to help any new players, and the lack of new content has kept even him disinterested and only playing randomly. If you are a new player who is joining for the first time, how long are you going to stick around given these circumstances? Not long.
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 10:07:12 GMT
And by the way, who wants to work that hard just to play a game?
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 31, 2015 14:57:48 GMT
And by the way, who wants to work that hard just to play a game? What fun is a game that isn't a challenge at all? It seems like most of what you're upset about is being jealous of people that have played the game longer and harder than you have. Some did have the advantage of playing during times certain items were easier to get but a lot of it has to do with time and presistence. Unlike a lot of games today, you can't buy your way to success on HG. But subrace and gear aren't everything. I know plenty of players that use relatively easy to get subraces like doppleganger, planewalker, and rakshasa that are very successful. Acaos always brags about playing his planewalker wizard and only wearing rare rings. It is annoying thinking you want subrace X but you only have subrace z. It's happened to me too but in that case I go for the next best thing. I don't always use the best subrace for something and neither does everyone else. I did hells with UR subraces and UR items. We all did, and won. Not always on the first try, but we did it. Skilled play is far more important than a good subrace. And these days you have paragon levels which, imo, have far more impact than a good subrace. -S
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Post by mongoose2 on Dec 31, 2015 17:54:20 GMT
That is an ad hominem argument that you started with, but I will address it partially.
Have nots have always been jealous of the haves. So what? Doesn't disprove my point, nor does it prove anything in regards to proving anything except that generally speaking that is true. Again. So what. You have offered no counter argument. Only an ad hominem.
And by the way, you are an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. Whenever someone starts talking about the rule itself you always have the exceptions to the rule show up and say the rule itself isn't true because they are exceptions to it. But so what? The exceptions to the rule only prove it to be true by their rarity, and highlighting the contrast between them, and everyone else. You are an exception to the rule. I say again. So what?
Generally speaking most people don't want to work that hard when playing a game. Generally speaking people play a game to escape reality. Generally speaking people playing a game want to get things more easily than what you have to offer. Generally speaking people play other games where this happens. Generally speaking. Just because you decide you like a challenge above and beyond what is offered by other games doesn't mean the rule doesn't apply. Generally speaking most people who play games of this nature do not like your game. Generally speaking. Just because you like it, and want to defend it doesn't prove anything.
And by the way, how many players are there that have joined within the past year that have done what you are talking about and are still there? Can you name even a handful of examples, or are people voting with their feet?
Generally speaking most people do not like bungee jumping. Generally speaking most people do not like to dive out of planes. Generally speaking people don't like to play in traffic. Do these things happen sometimes? Sure. Do most people do these things? No.
How often do some new players come onto your server and gain the kind of success that the long time influential players there possess? Rarely looking at the numbers. You are yet again focusing on surface things, and not looking at the issues at hand. In fact you're refusing to look deeper. You fail to understand the core issues at work here.
You can't buy your way to success like you can in most games? You mean by saving gold, and amassing wealth, which takes time? Is that what most games available today do? Well that seems to be what most people like, generally speaking. And by the way, that cannot be done on your server if you are a new player, as they can almost never attain the needed gold to buy anything worth having before it is purchased by one of the haves, who are in the majority by the way. That creates its own set of unique problems.
You can be proud of being exceptions to the rule, and it is just fine to get together in some secluded place and do things together as a group. But do not later on start complaining that you have few people in your group, and you don't know why, and then try to entice people to join by making it ever more unique and unappealing to the masses. You are the exception to the rule. What is appealing to you and your friends is in no way appealing to those of us who are not the exceptions, which is most of the people in the world by the way. If you want to attract those people, and flood your game with new players, you are going to have to make some changes that make the game less of an exception, and more in line with the rule itself. Don't want to do that? Of course not, because for you it is a fine fit, and that is fine, but for the majority it is not. It is like I said before, until you open up, and start recognizing the real source of the problem you are never going to get the new players that you want. Players that would save your game.
By the way, the more of an exception the game becomes to try and please those who are still there, the more exceptional it becomes in regards to the rule in question, and the less people will want to play it. You need to recognize that reality. And if you don't want to make the necessary changes, or wish to continue simply disagreeing that is your choice, but it won't help increase your servers player numbers.
And if you can provide 2 or 3 or 4 names of people who have had some success that joined in the past year, so what. A few people that are the exceptions to the rule on a server of people that are exceptions to the rule. It doesn't prove anything. So a few people who enjoy this time of activity, in this type of social atmosphere were able to attain some success. So what? I'm sure that among people that enjoy bungee jumping there is some person who has achieved some weird record, or done a thousand jumps in 3 days, or some other such thing that makes him an exception among a small group of people that enjoy bungee jumping. It doesn't do anything except prove the rule.
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Post by tank on Dec 31, 2015 19:15:53 GMT
"Hi. I saw your comments on the thread about running the server into the ground. You seemed to have some initial good views, than you stopped commenting. I also posted on this thread, but in much more detail. Hope you will check out the thread again and contribute something positive. " - rockfucker aka mongoose
my response: nigga I ain't got time for that
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 31, 2015 20:43:34 GMT
Mongoose, even if we accepted your argument, which isn't much more than "my feelings are legitimate because I say so". What would you propose we do? Give away Ten substances to every new player? How do we determine who is new? Massively rescale the game to make it easier? Reset everyone's account to zero?
Most of these would be massively unpopular and needless work. HG has always been a deep, challenging game. We're not going to turn it into something else at this point purely because some aspects bother you in particular. If you have constructive doable suggestions feel free to propose them.
-S
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 1, 2016 2:21:55 GMT
Actually Sabre that is what your views are, you feel that way so they are legitimate. I never gave an opinion and didn't provide an argument to back it up, nor did I disagree with others without providing a counter argument. If you don't agree with my argument provide a counter argument to disprove my argument. Logical reasoning. Nothing more. However, to say "Meh I say all you are doing is providing "feelings" (which are of course subjective) so we can or cannot agree with you without actually looking at any arguments you provide" is not accurate. I provided an argument. What was that argument? That you have a small and closed social system with a very small population of people who are exceptions to the rule in the gaming community. If this were not the case your game would be literally "loaded" with players, like WOW and other games, which have millions of players as opposed to your 12 or 13. They are the rule, and you are the exception. Yes they are different games, but so what. Clearly those games are what people prefer, generally speaking. And let us be honest with ourselves. NWN was never more than a niche market, and even at its height wasn't pulling in anywhere near the numbers of similar on line games. It is like comparing millions in a single game to thousands spread over every server out there in its heyday, so you cannot use the "Oh well the game has simply gotten old" defense. It was never more than a small niche market. If you say this is false, and that you and the other people that play in your community are not the exceptions to the rule, than you need to prove that. Not stoop to what is essentially a straw man argument. I am most certainly "not" simply saying "I feel this way, so it is so."
Massively rescale the game? No. There are some very simple things you could do that would provide equity, and "change" the entire social paradigm of the server. Instead of spending your time ruminating about changing minor little things that are symptoms of a bigger problem, you change the things that are causing that problem, and you have a winner. Basically you replace what isn't working right with what is, but in this case with changes that would require little programming wizardry. However these changes would also change the entire social paradigm, and make your game more like the ones you seem not to like, so I doubt you would want to impact your own playing experience.
That is the problem when you are the exception to the rule, when you like doing things in a way and manner that the majority of humanity does not. As long as it is legal I am all for it, but don't wonder about why most people have little interest in doing it with you. The resistance to my arguments is a form of denial, and until you accept the logic of what I am saying, or at the very least explore the argument instead of dismissing it out of hand with straw mans, and ad hominems you really have no hope of attracting a broader audience. Like attracts like, and that is what we have here. Sadly few people are like you and the others in your community in terms of gaming. If they were your servers would all be full.
Needless work you say? If that was the case no one would be wondering why your server has declined in population, or asking about ways to counter this development. Nothing needless about that. Please provide an argument as to why doing things to increase your server population is needless work? If you make a claim I am going to demand at least some form of argument to back it up.
By the way I enjoy the game some of the time, and find it challenging, but the problem isn't the game. You still cannot seem to get off focusing on the small minor things that are not really the problem. The problem is the way you have set up your society, not the game itself. It lacks equity, and in general is not playable anymore by new players. If you doubt that you need to look at your server population, and who is, and is not new. As for not being able to identify who the new players are I find that amusing, as I can do that without having played in years. I recognize the majority of the names.
I think what you really want is to attract other exceptions to the rule who are just fine with, and even enjoy the way you have things currently set up. That is what I believe you really want. My response to that is good luck. You have made it such a closed social system that there are very few people that it will actually appeal to. If you want to attract new players you are going to have to make some changes, not fixes.
Please re read my old posts. Some things I did not go into broader detail about because frankly I don't have the time, and because I wanted the readers to connect some of the dots on their own. Social science explains all of your problems, as does a simple logic chain. Do some research on your own and it will verify my words, or don't. Ball is in your court now.
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Post by mongoose2 on Jan 1, 2016 2:24:10 GMT
Okay I will address this as someone has brought it up again. I live in France. I have looked up this person mentioned above by tank, and another person. From what I've read people posting on this forum know where the person lives, or have some idea. Feel free to check my ip address. I give the administration here permission to provide my ip if they feel like it, or at the very least verify I live where I say I do. Compare the two, and then stop interjecting these accusations into my posts.
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Post by chirality on Jan 1, 2016 3:46:41 GMT
I'm not sure why people would assume you're the banned Chinese troll, when it's obvious that you're merely a butthurt French nub.
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Post by fallenwizard on Jan 11, 2016 17:26:03 GMT
A nice story, and it took some time to write. Has nothing to do with this thread other than to illustrate the somewhat limited and conformist based system created when you have many more haves than have nots. Also proves rules have exceptions, but that's not news to any of us. Limited ability to play the game as whatever you want, limited ability to gain the required gear, limited ability to find the people you would like to play with because everyone conforms to the same common denominator. Limited ability to attain the best, and limited ability to do without the assistance of the have (winners) as opposed to the have nots (losers) who actually have something to gain by helping you. Not sure why I came here and spend my time.. I must be drunk or something. The story above illustrates perfectly the curve what it takes for you to turn to have from have not. It doesn't take years, it doesn't require handouts, all it requires is one's ability to learn and adapt. What comes to limited ability to play the as what ever you want = only thing server limits you from playing is minor boost in stats/feats - actually HG offers you way broader selection of what to play since they have removed a lot of restrictions between classes, say you can be a bard/paladin, not to even mention quasi-classes available for everyone by their choice - side note, UR races are quite cheap to buy on !bazaar or in market. Limited ability to gain the required gear = you can gain required gear pretty much by just farming gold from LL and using market & !bazaar, 30-100mill a piece and you'll get the bur/ur you want. A quick math.. less than a billion and you're pretty much set to go anywhere. NOTE: required gear, not best possible - which doesn't really even exist, since there is always a better randomization to have. Limited ability to find the people you would like to play with = sure, social skills etc can be hard for some. People can learn to be silent, but even that wont necessarily be enough if others keep trying to have conversations with you about the run. Then again, generally you could just read - given that you understand English and adjust your game play, as totally silent. That above was the WORSE case scenario if you have a personality that doesn't meet with others' (umm what was the phrase..) "conforms to the same common denominator". Limited ability to attain the best = ??? Limited ability to get dragged by haves = ???? not sure what to say here, there should be a mercenary you could buy a nessus drag? These's "haves" could do it all from scratch in no time, because there is something called skill. Skill can mean many things here, it can be knowledge of the server such as spawns, weaknesses, strengths, dangers etc, it can be team work of making chars that fill others flaws, it can be creativity to find the way to handle each and every thing a working way or it can just be your mechanical skill to target your spells on right targets, on right time and ability to react on random spawns. Now, are there problems in the state of the server - most definitely, but those problems are what one chooses to make of it. I do have to point out one thing, with shrinking population, HG might turn into too hard server for new players - where as it is too easy for old timers.
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