Super Soup (Wizard 26 Cleric 13 Monk 1)

[desocupado]

This character was refreshing to play in LL areas and does a nice job against most bosses, tough it suffers with the removal of !sb load/save (as any wizard).
Basically it's a damage arcane with a twist, good use of cleric side for more damage (Who would guess a Theurge could do that...).


Objectives:
1 High damage potential (Karsus + Creeping doom + blade barrier + evaard's tentacle + physical vulnerability infliction = amazing physical damage soup)
2 Adjustable Spellbook (something sorcerers can't pull off - i.e. setup the numerous Evocation and Conjuration spells)
3 A few limited options for instant kill - Weird - Detonate - Sun Burst - PWK - Gust
4 Able to specialize (I say block both enchantment and necromancy schools for more Evocation to ensure CC with those thunderclaps and polar rays) You need to get Paragon Enchantment with Polymath

Race: Elf subrace: Drow Noble
Stats (creation)
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 18+6
Wis 16+4
Cha 8

All points into Int.

Saves: (at 60 with +12 gear)
Fort 52
Will 60
Ref 47

Feats total 7+7+7 +4/wizard +2/subrace +2/epic +3/tome = 32 (pretty good)

-Pre-epic = 7 +2/wizard bonus +2*/Drow (Go Wizard 10 Cleric 10)
1 SF Evocation - GSF Div (free)
3 GSF Evocation
5 SF Conjuration
6 GSF Conjuration
9 Spell Penetration
10 Greater Spell Penetration
12 Extend spell
15 Empower spell
18 Maximize spell

-Epic 7 +2/epic +2/wizard = 11 feats (Wizard 10 - Cleric 3 - Wizard 6 - Monk 1)
21 ESF Evocation
24 ESF Conjuration
25 Epic spell Penetration
27-39 Great Int x8

-Legendary 7 +tome of ESF Illusion
42 Legendary Spell Penetration
45 LSF Evocation
48 LSF Conjuration
51 LSF Illusion
54 Great Int IX
57 ESF Div
60 Great Int X

-Paragon 6 feats
63 Polymath Just call this Karsus
66 Paragon spell Penetration
69 PSF Evocation
72 PSF Conjuration
75 PSF Illusion
78 PSK Conjuration/Illusion/Evocation Undecided, depends if polymath allows to use karsus twice.

-Gear
I went with spell pen artifact for the extra DC/SP for boss fights since I can't ED.

----
Possible alterations:
-Ditch Monk (there is just a small ac loss over the shield - but I do like the skill dump in everything and the option of using a flag/torch/rod)
-Ditch specialization (I say it's a good idea to increase the DC of detonate, polar ray and claps to ensure the secondary effect and full damage)
-Ditch Maximize Spell (for what?)

[chirality]

This build would become more viable by ditching specialization + dropping maximize, ESF div, LSF Conj, PSF conj, and PSK conj for PSF nec or trans.

Taking rogue splash for full picking/searching ability w/ Able Learner is an easy choice and would provide a useful presence on endgame runs such as nessus or p3s, to make up for the critical lack of trans or nec that prevents this build from functioning as a real mage.

[desocupado]

Thanks for the feedback.

My first sketch had ranger (skills search, AE and discipline maxed with able learner and a free feat) and with Transmutation focus (as per your suggestion) and probably with ESF Divination (PWK needs love when you lack necromancy). What I felt was I could make due with detonate (instead of disintegrate proved not true in my experience with a BFM), Blade Barrier (instead of Flensing which needs the focus to shine to reach Evaard's ab since it's Wis based but otherwise works fine, even better since I can use creep doom with full vulnerability) and bigby fist and evaard's (instead of reverse gravity less spammable fest).

In my experience as clerics I had necromancy (heartbane, destruction and ED) and implodeded most disintegratable targets So I thought I wouldn't miss as Death magic as much.


On splash options: (all have listen and cause xp penalty)
Rogue: Open lock requires 14 bonuses with both dex and SF - with base dex 10 it's problematic. (easier shield slag is another problem)
Ranger: Extra feat, search discipline and ae. (lacks tumble and disable trap)
Monk: Tumble Discipline. May keep some AC with torches.

---

Ac comparison
Rogue at 60 +12
10 - base
19 - natural (tenser's)
0+15 - armor modifer (armor bonus + base armor type)
6 - dex modifier (may be limited by armor type)
16 - deflection
20 - dodge + haste
12 - tumble (depends on skill level)
3+11 - shield modifier
2 - skill modifier (craft armor provides +1 to ac per 40 fully modified ranks)
=114 O.o
Demigod +1/+2
+14/+16 dex gear = +1/+2
Paragon dex bonus= +1
Asmodeus Deflection +20 = +3/+0 (+0 if stixwalkers)
+4 guirding
+3 Prescient's Guard
+4 if Magic vestment on the tower shield (+SF Abjuration)
133 potential (Ranger is this -6 However the rogue can be easily slagged. So he can lose 1 ac and wear asmo shield instead after demi)

Monk has same AC as rogue with the shield So with torch it goes:
Monk at 60 +12
10 - base
19 - natural (tenser's)
0+15 - armor modifer (armor bonus + base armor type)
6 - dex modifier (may be limited by armor type)
11 - wis modifier (limited by armor type)
16 - deflection
20 - dodge + haste
12 - tumble (depends on skill level)
2 - skill modifier (craft armor provides +1 to ac per 40 fully modified ranks)
=111 3 less than rogue in shield
Each demi +2/+4
+14/+16 dex = +1/+2
+14/+16 wis = +1/+2
Asmo +3/+0 (+0 if stixwalkers)
+2 guirding
+3 Prescient's Guard
Max Potential = 127 Close to rogue I think I'll try to have some fun with the Ruby Rod for a change.

Man I always forget my first theurge was Wis based, that's why the monk splash keeps popping on my mind (I had the.same issue trying to get divine shield on bards).

[drunkenboastor]

Because you are an evo specialist, you should take psk evocation before you take polymathy. Polymathy is just karsus, psk evocation is karsus and psf evocation without having to spend a feat on psf evocation.

For a specialist wizard, I would never bar necromancy. Death of Magic for me is a requirement.

[desocupado]

Jan 27, 2016 3:07:28 GMT drunkenboastor said:

Because you are an evo specialist, you should take psk evocation before you take polymathy. Polymathy is just karsus, psk evocation is karsus and psf evocation without having to spend a feat on psf evocation.

For a specialist wizard, I would never bar necromancy. Death of Magic for me is a requirement.

Yeah, DoM is REALLY great (and required at Aboleths while handy in many places). It just seemed the easiest to bar given drow noble's GSF Divination.
On the other hand I'm a bit confused at your comment on PSK Evocation. Here's the update note:

--- Paragon Spell Knowldge feats require knowledge of the respective epic spell, and either Paragon Spell Focus in the school, or wizard specialization in the school. They grant the ability to cast the school's paragon spell, and a second casting of the school's epic spell. Epic spells that already have more than one casting have their castings doubled, and toggleable epic spells with counters have their counters burn at half the normal rate.

I spoke with Acaos, it SHOULD give the Paragon spell when you reach 61 with at least ESF and the respective Spec (without the x2 epic spell), but it isn't doing that atm (bug / not implemented). Soon to be fixed.

[chirality]

The doc quoted refers to Paragon Spell Knowledge feat requirements. It clearly says Paragon Spell Knowledge feats. It does not say paragon spell token. It does not say free anything. You are allowed to buy the PSK Evo feat without the PSF Evo feat. This is the documented benefit for specialization. It was said above that you can skip PSF and still take PSK (which your experience seemed to agree when PSF disappeared as an option once you selected PSK). That is a big difference vs having PSK for free.

But until you brought this up no one ever assumed that you could have spec + ESF and actually get PSK feat for free. We all expected that the benefit of spec for paragon epic spells was just as the documentation said: that you can qualify to take the PSK feat without PSF 1st, if you have ESF + spec. It seems to me that the documentation does not read that you get a PSK feat for free, or a paragon spell token for free. As for your chat about no other wizard thinking of this issue before you, that's because no other wizard interpreted the documentation the way you did.

[Acaos]

Jan 31, 2016 23:45:53 GMT desocupado said:

I spoke with Acaos, it SHOULD give the Paragon spell when you reach 61 with at least ESF and the respective Spec (without the x2 epic spell), but it isn't doing that atm (bug / not implemented). Soon to be fixed.

I'm looking into this now, and here's the way it's currently coded:

- You need to be a paragon character (no matter what).
- You can buy the Paragon Spell Knowledge (X) feat one of the following two ways:
-- Have Paragon Spell Focus (X).
-- Have Epic Spell Focus (X) *and* Arcane Specialization (X).

Here's what the documentation for Paragon Spell Knowledge (X) says:

'Paragon Spell Knowledge feats require knowledge of the respective epic spell, and either Paragon Spell Focus in the school, or wizard specialization in the school. They grant the ability to cast the school's paragon spell, and a second casting of the school's epic spell.'

HOWEVER, there's another document (seen only in !doc wizard) which says the following:

'In order to learn paragon spells, you must know the epic spell in the school, and have either wizard school specialization in the school, or take both Paragon Spell Focus and Paragon Spell Knowledge feats in the school.'

So I will discuss with Funky and the rest of the team which of the two should be correct (especially given that there are few specialist wizards out there).

Acaos

[desocupado]

My interpretation at first is the same as chirality (hence I called polymath "Karsus" and didn't bother with taking PSK Evocation instead of the last PSK feat).
I was puzzled as drunkenboastor said something otherwise, that PSK would net you PSF for free.

However as Acaos pointed out there is a documentation that would say you'd get it for free (i.e. don't have to take PSK feat):

Arcane Epic and Paragon Spells
- This document lists custom arcane epic and paragon spells on Higher Ground.
- In order to learn epic spells, you must have 25 class levels of Sorcerer, Wizard, or Pale Master, be at least level 40, have the Epic Spell Focus feat in the spell's school, and find someone or something to teach you the spell.
- In order to learn paragon spells, you must know the epic spell in the school, and have either wizard school specialization in the school, or take both Paragon Spell Focus and Paragon Spell Knowledge feats in the school.

It would make sense to get the PSK for free (and early) as an specialist tough. After all wizards are all about extra knowledge/feats.

[chirality]

- In order to learn paragon spells, you must know the epic spell in the school, and have either wizard school specialization in the school, or take both Paragon Spell Focus and Paragon Spell Knowledge feats in the school.

Yes, I see now that the 2 diff docs do not agree here. Although considering Polymath and knowing that Funky never agreed wizards need a buff, I find it hard to believe he intended spec wizard level up to 61, pick polymath, and suddenly have 2x karsus. That seems a bit much...but I suppose some people were really itching for a L61 toon with two paragon spells..

Feb 1, 2016 6:49:28 GMT Acaos said:

So I will discuss with Funky and the rest of the team which of the two should be correct (especially given that there are few specialist wizards out there).

Acaos

This is not a useful-enough change to incentivize specialization. The +1CL/5PL on specced school would have been a nice start However that was never applied, on the basis of wizard not needing the buff (iirc)

The problem is that there is no viable 2nd school to bar; the only bannable school is Ench. Banning any other school results in a wizard that is even less flexible than sorc, while flexibility was lauded as wizard's balancing device vs sorc. Spec is fail and will remain fail until the carrot for losing a precious school is something people actually care about (I'd say "or until HG stops requiring all schools to be useful" but that obviously is contrary to the logic of balancing wiz vs sorc by making all schools required; every new spell or mobchange that is intended to make wizards more attractive vs sorcs, also makes generalist more attractive vs spec). The attractiveness of the slated CL boost was that a sorc with CL63 at L60 channeling still casts spells better than a L80 wizard of his spec school; with +4 CL by L80, a spec wizard might feel powerful enough to feel like spec was worth while. Wizard gets Polymath already so another free paragon seems like one too many steps in "paragon spell as benefit" direction for wizards.

And, for what it's worth, a problem with this improvement is that it doesn't actually give anything useful or desirable to real wizards (who should be the ones given carrot to speccing), but rather improves power of wizard-based quasiclasses and hybrids who already can specialize at no cost and afford easily an ESF (and these classes already get free paragon spell if desired vai polymathy). Staffy, wiz-CC AA, PM, these are examples of classes that players will reliably specialize--they only care about the handful of spells they can cast at full power anyway. A staffy or PM will always specialize, because they lose nothing and gain amazing benefits. It's already a silly situation that specialization in HG serves the needs of everyone except real wizards.

[simpetar]

Just out of curiosity, why start with 16 (+4) base wisdom? With 13 cleric levels you will be able to cast only lvl 7 spells naturally. Anything over that will be metamagic that comes from spell slot gear: most notably extended GR. I suggest dropping starting wisdom to 14 (+4) to meet the quasi requirement and put 4 points into dex. That will 1. make you more resistant to malebs, erins and the like, 2. give you more AC whether you splash rogue, monk or ranger. Also if you decide to splash rogue (and have end-game in mind), 3. 14 starting dex at lvl 80, double demi, +16 gear and Stolen Lifeforce will evolve into 38 dex and with will allow you to hit the 127 cap for OL.

note 1: Search and Disarm Trap would be capped anyways, they are based on int
note 2: With only 10 dex you would need SF: Open Lock form either feat or on an item and those are rather rare

[desocupado]

Feb 22, 2016 10:02:49 GMT simpetar said:

Just out of curiosity, why start with 16 (+4) base wisdom? With 13 cleric levels you will be able to cast only lvl 7 spells naturally. Anything over that will be metamagic that comes from spell slot gear: most notably extended GR. I suggest dropping starting wisdom to 14 (+4) to meet the quasi requirement and put 4 points into dex. That will 1. make you more resistant to malebs, erins and the like, 2. give you more AC whether you splash rogue, monk or ranger. Also if you decide to splash rogue (and have end-game in mind), 3. 14 starting dex at lvl 80, double demi, +16 gear and Stolen Lifeforce will evolve into 38 dex and with will allow you to hit the 127 cap for OL.

note 1: Search and Disarm Trap would be capped anyways, they are based on int
note 2: With only 10 dex you would need SF: Open Lock form either feat or on an item and those are rather rare

I think I upped wisdom to get will 60.

If I'm not mistaken one needs to have base wisdom 19 to use the level IX slots - in this case maximized blade barrier. (need confirmation)
More dexterity seems good otherwise. Even dropping 1 wisdom to get 2 dexterity.


Still to get 127 OL one would need base rank goes 63 +50/mag = 113 + X // X = 14 - i.e. modified dex 38 at level 7X (not a feasible goal for me)