High impact BK idea

[simpetar]

Here is one idea for BK spell, possibly elevating BKs to other divine tanks level. Any one of these suggestions may very well be OP, in that case view them as general guideline. Constructive input welcome.

Black Blade of Disaster

When cast by a Bane Knight, instead of conjuring a blade, it will imbue caster's own weapon with nefarious power.

Duration: 1 round / CL; if the caster has Extended Spell, the duration is automatically doubled.

Always active effect: Shield AC bonus equal to (CL/10); the blade acts in its wielder's defense. Keen. (CL/3) enhancement bonus, capped at +20.

Toggleable on-hit effects: Initially only 1 can be active at a time, but if certain conditions are met, they can become active automatically. Hey, it is a lvl 9 spell so it should be a worthy competitor (Bigby 9, BBoD, one day perhaps PWK). Note: inspiration for some of these came from Hive poisons, but poisons should be still be applicable (otherwise what is the point)

1. Powerful spell breach effect. If the caster has at least ESF in Abjuration, it becomes automatic.

2. (3/2*CL) vampiric regeneration on hit. If the caster has at least ESF in Conjuration, it becomes automatic.

3. Stacking -1 penalty to target's Parry on hit, no cap. If the caster has at least ESF in Divination, it becomes automatic.

4. Stun on hit. An already stunned target receives (CL/20)d6 Psionic damage (similar to shifter Mind Flayer form). If the caster has at least ESF in Enchantment, it becomes automatic.

5. Bigby's Interposing Hand (possibly ignoring SR) on hit. If the caster has at least ESF in Evocation, it becomes automatic.

6. Phantasmal Killer at standard BK casting rules. If the caster has at least ESF in Illusion, it becomes automatic. Probably too powerful, since BK has at least 7 attacks per round, but DC, SP and spell level are inferior to real caster Weird and it is only single target.

7. Level drain on hit, as per the poison. If the caster has at least ESF in Necromancy, it becomes automatic.

8. Wrack on hit, at standard BK casting rules, but treated as Transmutation (and thus bypassing school immunity to Necromancy). If the caster has at least ESF in Transmutation, it becomes automatic.

[Raj]

Good, you can take my scepter as defender of the doomed BK quasi now

I gave up on that but from the other thread:

Feb 21, 2014 21:04:15 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Feb 11, 2014 17:11:58 GMT FunkySwerve said:

This. For increased defenses, I might still consider displacement as a nod to its semi-thematic nature, but probably not anything else (bear in mind they may be getting the opportunity to take Venom Immunity, per another recent suggestion thread). That said, what do you all think of the following list?:

Ray of Enfeeblement
Blindness/Deafness
Hold Person
Enervation
Fear
Cloudkill
Feeblemind
Circle of Death
Eyebite
Rebuke
Antipathy
Horrids
PWK

I'm especially curious as to people's thoughts on how it effects incentives to take spell foci, as per Raj's point on PWK above. Usefulness of a given spell is a relevant consideration, but do bear in mind that, with every area, we strive to make more spells useful.

Funky

This list is going in as BK spells next update, with help from Jean.

Funky

The spells in that list are still not bk ones.

[desocupado]

How about a Herald/Pm treatment?

The spells X, Y and Z are considered from Y school when cast by BK.

[simpetar]

What heralds and PMs have is very tight specialization, a niche. BKs have that too: the Bigby line. Part of the problem is, that Bigbies are no longer as attractive as they used to be: BB6 is easily replaced by other numerous KD effect, BB7 and BB9 are situational at the best and even then the eligible targets die so fast that attacking them is more efficient than casting, and BB8 got drastic hit that not even BK vile damage can make up for. BB5 is awesome and has universal use, but that is just one spell.

I believe if the spell list Raj suggested was implemented, it would not only update the quasi usefulness, but also give more choices for specialization. Do you want to grab things? Or drain and wail? Neutralize with Power Words and run with great soak? Turn with Antipathy and instakill with Rebukes? The current spells are too few and too chaotic to pick one clear path, except for Bigbies that are wee little outdated. Wider build diversitiy is always a good thing (paraphrasing Funky), which is also why I suggested the idea in OP, to give more headache for lvl 9 spells

Also, the SP formula is little harsh and pushes BKs even more towards "generic tank" and away from "tank with extras". Something like (str mod * 2/7) would be more competitive and realistic than the current (str mod / 4). In effect: 66 str will give +8 penetration (quite an achievable goal), 74 str will give +9 (hard, but possible) and 80 str will give +10 (LOL, good luck).

[Twilight Semner]

80 STR is attainable with BK, especially with an XR race. Level 80 max STR for a BK is 82, granted that requires Fallen, all great strength feats, and STR arti.

[simpetar]

Mar 11, 2016 0:33:45 GMT Twilight Semner said:

80 STR is attainable with BK, especially with an XR race. Level 80 max STR for a BK is 82, granted that requires Fallen, all great strength feats, and STR arti.

This is great news, now we are getting somewhere! I had general (tank) building guidelines in mind: BKs built from scratch should have 14 wisdom (for Death Ward), 19 charisma (for lvl 9 spells), dexterity around 14+ (just being tank), some intelligence for skills (both BGs and sorcs get only 2 base points) and strength needs to get as high as possible. We are talking a quasi that can be tight already, gets 3-4 epic bonus feats. Oh and str arti is not really an option these days.

TL;DR That "LOL, good luck" was aimed at the efforts to get 80 str and maintain a well-rounded and balanced tank, even with the BG LL bonus. Possible, no doubt, but still good luck

This said, BKs still are part-time casters, so it makes sense that they are also weaker than real ones. But as I wrote, (str mod / 4) SP is bit harsh.

[FunkySwerve]

Mar 10, 2016 23:24:16 GMT simpetar said:

I believe if the spell list Raj suggested was implemented, it would not only update the quasi usefulness, but also give more choices for specialization. Do you want to grab things? Or drain and wail? Neutralize with Power Words and run with great soak? Turn with Antipathy and instakill with Rebukes? The current spells are too few and too chaotic to pick one clear path, except for Bigbies that are wee little outdated. Wider build diversitiy is always a good thing (paraphrasing Funky), which is also why I suggested the idea in OP, to give more headache for lvl 9 spells

Wider build diversity can be hurt as well as helped by giving additional powers to a class. You're confusing what I was probably talking about (build diversity serverwide, among all builds) with giving a particular class more options/branches. Diversity within a class sub/type or quasi is great too, but it can just as easily damage serverwide build diversity. More careful thinking is involved. Who's toes might the edit step on, and why?

That said, I haven't even looked at the edits on the merits, other than that they look thematically appropriate. I'm trying to give you a sense of the other important considerations, in case you want to develop the concept further before Team review (which both saves us time and increases liklihood of getting the edits you are asking for).

Funky

[simpetar]

Alright, thanks for clarification Funky, going to elaborate further on the matter. Disclaimer: this is an attempt to somewhat redefine their lost niche (and not to make the zomg-uber-pwners, as my ideas sometimes tend to be), constructive input still welcome.

BKs vs. other tanks with level 9 spells

That is battle clerics (BC) and stormlords (SL). I am not going to include BFM/DSM tanks with 18+ sorc levels, because they are incredibly rare, unconventional and often built with very specific goal in mind.

1. BCs and SLs get epic and paragon spells. BKs get nothing of that sort. These spells often determine if the tank is even going to be invited in the group: an extra Miracle, Serendipitous Forethought or Immutable Force (and others) are always welcome. BKs cannot offer any of this added usefulness to the party, apart from very niche Bigbies.

2. Nor BCs neither SLs are considered quasiclasses and have access to the full spell arsenal and unmodified basic class abilities. In addition, some of BC and SL spells are empowered and elevated to be a signature ability (Nature's Balance, Battletide). BK abilities are limited because of quasi status (e.g. Divine Might). BK signature spells are:
2.1 Vampiric Touch: its use is limited to killing non-paragon Mammon's Tears en masse.
2.2 Bigby's Clenched Fist: after the conceal reduction does comparable damage to a full round of attacking with appropriately buffed weapon.
2.3 Bigby's Crushing Hand: mainly used in epic and legendary runs, but its usefulness is limited in the end-game. Mainly for grabbing Raks, Ice Fiends and Yuan-Ti sorceresses. The added Vile damage is insignificant at any level and honestly: if it is grabbed, it is dead already.
2.4 Premonition: great buff and has cool visual.

BKs vs. tanks in general

BKs are in a unique position, as the only tanks who can cast offensive DC spells and swing a weapon in the same build. BFM/DSM tanks deal raw damage with their spells. BCs and SLs provide epics and utility. Assassins and Rangers have their instakills. Divine tanks, Barbarians (and sometimes Threaders and Rogues) deal respectable damage with non-spell means. Chanters have great damage potential with very good party contribution.

Unfortunately, DC spells mean that BKs need to beat monster SR and saves, or they are wasting time. It gets much worse as demi count gets higher, BKs just cannot keep up, have to give up on spellcasting altogether and resolve to being a mediocre tank with mediocre damage.

BK spell analysis by schools

Realistic BK build with BUR subrace can afford 2 schools with LSF by level 60, upgrading to PSF afterwards. This is typically Evocation and Divnation; with access to Twice Cursed Armor, Evocation can be swapped around. Strength at level 60 with a BUR subrace is around 60, and under current rules it takes 8 str points to raise SP by 1 (+6 at str 58, +7 at str 66, +8 at str 74, higher numbers are not realistic). The BK DC formula adds 1 DC for every 6 strenght points, effectively making BK as efficient as caster 2-3 subrace tiers lower.

BK spells are spread widely across all schools, only with Evocation having more than few offensive spells (but their downside in end-game explained above). Adding more spells to the list WILL increase BK power, but at the same time focus in more than 2 schools is not plausible. Note: leaving out most buffing spells, because they are already on the list, and only few are important.

1. Abjuration: currently contains great buff spells that are not stepping on anybody's toes. The current offensive spells are Banishment and Dismissal. No changes needed here.

2. Conjuration: currently only Acid Sheath is available here and no offensive spell. Not sure why Cloudkill was ever suggested, except perhaps for the name

3. Divination: currently Power Word: Stun and Premonition are from this school. Power Word: Kill and Feeblemind have been suggested. Divination is a popular school for BKs, for the Premonition buff alone. PW:S is an icing on the cake, but it is seldom used. A bard with Stillsound can do the PW:S job more efficiently, thanks to the huge SP bonus. PWK would be a very nice addition to the repertoire; every party going into Abyss needs one or more people able to PWK and since there is no DC involved, giving PWK to BKs is not stepping on anybody's toes, there are only focus rank criteria to do the job.PWK is level 9 spell, BKs can have only 1 or 2 of those. Feeblemind is rarely seen on any kind of caster, but can be useful for both will save drop and the partial amnesia. Currently no arcane class or arcane quasi caster in the game is encouraged to pick Divination for offensive purposes; only GSF augmenters /gear and Draughts are used "because they have to".

4. Enchantment: Confusion, Mind Fog and Mass Blindness/Deafness are on the BK list. Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness, Rebuke and Antipathy have been suggested. Enchantment is the domain of Heralds, it is rarely the choice of wizards and DC caster bards. It it potentially very powerful school. Hold Person does not have a great impact on end-game because of low spell level and because paralysis can be handled by others in more elegant manner (Stonehold, shifter in Marut form, Bigby 9,...). Blindness/Deafness added to the list has even lower impact, because BKs can select the Mass version and even then its use is very limited and more often than not detrimental. Rebuke is typically cast by clerics, because arcane casters have better and aoe means to killing mind spell vulerable enemies. Antipathy is the spell that could have big impact. It is arcane only, so only some Heralds will cast it. With a turner in the group it is little bit redundant, but overall a powerful crowd control tool.

5. Evocation: Bigbies, all of them. Just for recap, once the niche school / spell line for BKs, but outdated these days. Popular also because Bigbies have no DC check, and on the other checks except SP, BKs have no significant disadvantage. Bigby 9 is level 9 spell, BKs can have only 1 or 2 of those.

6. Illusion: currently has Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Shield and Weird. Shadow Shield is rarely relevant, as it comes from gear / potions. PK is currently relevant only in Hive, where level 9 spells are blocked. Weird is one of the most common arcane spells, so 1 BK casting it will get lost in the crowd. Weird is level 9 spell, BKs can have only 1 or 2 of those. No changes here.

7. Necromancy: currently has Vampiric Touch, Wrack, Energy Drain. Vampiric Touch is only useful for killing Mammon's Tears and for prebuffing in massed East Road before the run starts; irrelevant for end-game. Wrack is potentially useful, but suffers from the usual BK weaknesses: DC and SP. Energy Drain is already on the list and it is as powerful as it is popular among arcane casters and clerics; again one ED-ing BK will get lost in the crowd. ED is level 9 spell, BKs can have only 1 or 2 of those. Suggested spells are Enervate, Fear, Circle of Death, Eyebite and Horrid Wilting. Circle of Death is commonly used by any arcane, as the basic death magic, it has many variations and basically every caster has a similar effect. Fear is used situationally, mainly in Abyss; in other places if something can be feared, it can usually be weirded. Eyebite is mostly QoL spell, if something is too far for Prayer or Veil of Doom, or is immune to low level spells. Horrid Wilting as a DC spell is useful only for special monsters, just like PWK; as damage spell it comes in an endless supply from thid wands. Enervate is one that can have a big impact. It is usually cast by evil clerics or PMs, BK casting is again inferior to these. Generally, Necromancy is the domain of PMs, but most arcane casters and clerics will take it too. BKs have to compete with them, and often lose, due to DC and SP.

8. Transmutation: Bestow Curse and few buffs. The buffs are already in place, so no big discussion needed here. So is Bestow Curse. What to add, Pariahs and PMs do the job better, Asmo rod does the job endlessly

Hope this is what you were looking for...

[FunkySwerve]

Very nicely done, thank you. I had a feeling the epic/melee issue would come up, which seems to me like fallout of the paragon level addition without matching melee power...to an extent, anyway.

I think many of the spell edits will help, to an extent, but they don't address the SP issue. How does SP compare to pure casters, and to the other melee casters?

I'm considering a mechanic whereby they can lower SR via melee attacks, perhaps only for themselves.

Thanks,
Funky

[simpetar]

Mar 13, 2016 21:01:34 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Very nicely done, thank you. I had a feeling the epic/melee issue would come up, which seems to me like fallout of the paragon level addition without matching melee power...to an extent, anyway.

I think many of the spell edits will help, to an extent, but they don't address the SP issue. How does SP compare to pure casters, and to the other melee casters?

I'm considering a mechanic whereby they can lower SR via melee attacks, perhaps only for themselves.

Thanks,
Funky

- BFM tanks with 3 paladin splash (12 sorc / 3 pally / 25 RDD) get full 60 SP plus any feats. They usually use the SP book, and there is no reason not to invest 1 feat in LLs and 1 feat in PLs. 70 SP in the end with PSP, on par with pure casters. Half-blooded ego adds another +1.
- Popular BCs (55 cleric / 5 splash) and 60 strength get 67 SP for Battletide, their signature (and only SR respecting) spell. Its SP goes up by 1 for every 4 points of strength (twice as fast as BK). Crown of the Twilight War adds +1, Kingpriest's ego adds +1.

- Pure casters with PSP get 70 SP. In order to get this high (under the current forumula), BKs need 90 strength (not gonna happen, ever).
- Splashed casters rarely have more than 2 levels from elsewhere, 68 SP with PSP. BKs need 74 strength to get here. It is possible with severe sacrifices elsewhere, after x2 demi and +16 gear.

[Twilight Semner]

Mar 13, 2016 21:01:34 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Very nicely done, thank you. I had a feeling the epic/melee issue would come up, which seems to me like fallout of the paragon level addition without matching melee power...to an extent, anyway.

I think many of the spell edits will help, to an extent, but they don't address the SP issue. How does SP compare to pure casters, and to the other melee casters?

I'm considering a mechanic whereby they can lower SR via melee attacks, perhaps only for themselves.

Thanks,
Funky

Current maximum possible BK spell pen is as follows:

- Assuming Pharlan, you could start with 22 STR (18 base + subrace), +2 from Pharlan Great Strength, another 20 from levels, 4 from CC Blackguard, another 8 from Great Strength feats, +2 from STR artifact, +14 from BUR item gives a total of 72 STR (+31 modifier). This means the absolute maximum SP for a BUR sub BK is +7. Another +4 from double-demigodhood, +2 from Paragon levels, and +2 from +16 item puts you at 80 STR (+35 modifier). Which means the absolute highest spell pen bonus you can get at level 80 is +8. Compared to pure casters, this puts you at a -1 at level 60 and -2 at level 80.

-- Most people don't start with that high of STR, but due to the BK SP formula, it doesn't really matter. Even with 66 STR (+28 mod) at level 60, you're still hitting +7 SP, which still scales up to +8 at level 80.

In my mind, there's a much bigger different in regards to DC. Using the same STR totals, a level 60 BK would get +27 to their DC from STR (assuming it rounds down, which I'm fairly certain it does). At level 80 they would get +31 to their DC from STR. Compare this to the +30 and +34 that pure casters are getting to their DCs. I think a -3 DC difference on all of their spells is pretty significant.

As far as how their SP compares to other melee casters, let's take BC Battletide for example. They get (STR mod / 2) bonus SP to their BT, which is a big enough bonus to make up for the fact that they're not pure, scaling to around +15 SP at max level. By further comparison, Stormlords don't really have to worry about it because their NB doesn't respect SR anyway and they don't cast much else offensively. BK is pretty unique in this regard.

EDIT: Simp beat me to it, but just for clarification our numbers are the same for Battlecleric SP, mine is just the total at level 80, whereas his is level 60.

[desocupado]

Something I never understood, Why can't bks have more dc than sorcerers given their incomplete books? Or a plain Str mod -2 for DC?

And SP can't go like like CL/6 (Or get free Leg Spell Penetration)

Between spell list, spell slots and no epics they are already bellow a caster.

[simpetar]

Mar 13, 2016 23:26:36 GMT desocupado said:

Something I never understood, Why can't bks have more dc than sorcerers given their incomplete books? Or a plain Str mod -2 for DC?

I believe it is because they are hybrid: half tank, half caster. When sorcs (or any casters) run out of spells / get amnied, they need to rest. BKs can still attack with weapons. Because of this, they should never be as powerful as real casters. This thread is more about giving them the option to cast spells that can actually land and/or contribute to the party in one or another way. Not to turn them into pariah/PM level specialist with WM crits and smiter non-crits.

Mar 13, 2016 21:01:34 GMT FunkySwerve said:

I'm considering a mechanic whereby they can lower SR via melee attacks, perhaps only for themselves.

Such as Bestow Curse on hit in medium radius (as per Visor of Cursed Chaos)? It might be bit extreme solution, but SL Aura of Balance essentially does the same thing in large radius. It does not directly adress BK's own issue with SP, but offers some level of utility for the group.

EDIT 1: Alternative, edit Cloudkill. Instead of dealing damage, enemy SR will be lowered by (CL/20) stacking on top of everything else, as long as they remain in the area of effect. That way, it will be less spammy, it will deplete valuable casts per day and still contribute to the whole group.
EDIT 2: Oh nevermind, that will turn them into Heralds v2, spamming Mindfog and Cloudkill everywhere. But you get the idea.

[Twilight Semner]

Mar 13, 2016 23:26:36 GMT desocupado said:

And SP can't go like like CL/6 (Or get free Leg Spell Penetration)

Because that wouldn't require any investment. You could have Dex BKs slinging fully powered Bigby hands. The strength requirement forces BKs to give up a little more defensiveness so that they can maximum their spellcasting. It's a matter of maintaining balance.

[drunkenboastor]

I would agree that 74 strength is the target for a bane knight build, there is not a lot of room to take more than one school to paragon focus with no other spell focuses and still be a viable tank. The 74 strength gives the same dc as a caster of 66 in primary, when compared to the 78 that a normal caster would have at the same level. So in effect, have less spell slots, 6 less dc, 2 less spell pen and no epics compared to an equal level end game caster build.