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Post by Raj on Mar 12, 2016 23:53:13 GMT
If you add a special, you remove 1 Great Strength I'd say Give it +2 dices on frost weapon when cast on self from the blackguard book (so 5 dices for the standard bk build, vs the 4 normally available from a friend cleric). Fixes the issue of having a buff but not using it because somebody else does it better.
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 13, 2016 0:01:29 GMT
Definitely like this version
Increased vile damage would be nice for flavor but pretty good as is.
*edit - definitely like the idea of increased dice on BG cold weapon as a special if needed.
-S
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 0:10:58 GMT
Yeah I agree, and as far as removing GSII I would much prefer to go without a special entirely
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 13, 2016 0:18:28 GMT
Moving along . . . Proposed Buoman
Vs. Current
Vs. Furchin
Compared to Furchin, as is Buoman is only somehwat better. It traded 4 con for 6 str and got GWF sling, lost 50% cold immune but now qualifies for listen. That's pretty good but other than listen it's not necessarily a clear upgrade. So I added some of the dex back. Special bullet damage and divine might for more damage and special as a divine slinger.
-S
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 1:14:56 GMT
"Favored of Gruumsh" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Monk - STR +6, DEX +2, CON +2, WIS +4 - Free Feats: WF/GWF: Quarter Staff, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess - Other: +5% Empty Body conceal Just an additional thought on this since I know SG's suggestion involves combining Favored of Gruumsh into Rhek, but what if we instead expanded the idea of F.o.G. to be designed for all two-handed monk variants (halberd, heavy flail, scythe, etc.) by removing specific weapon foci, adding more general two-handed STR monk feats (that aren't included in monk epic feats which was part of the problem with the current F.o.G. breakdown) and add Alertness and Iron will since it's a prereq for HS, etc. Thoughts? Would look something like this... "Favored of Gruumsh" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Monk - STR +6, DEX +4, WIS +4 - Free Feats: Power Attack, Alertness, Iron Will, Epic Prowess, Great Stength I - Other: +5% Empty Body conceal
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Post by Raj on Mar 13, 2016 3:00:59 GMT
Moving along . . . Proposed Buoman No, and I'll go even further and say I don't like this (approved? hope it can be still discussed since I missed the old train) XR as well: Epic Weapon Specialization from a subrace is broken, especially on subraces meant for builds who make a big deal about going pure (so that I'm more lenient when it comes about Zeny and monks, also, I'm damn late for that). If you think slingers and smiters have a damage problem, the fix is not give both the possibility of +20 damage (at cost of two more feats availabe even if you're not a fighter), only when a XR is unlocked. Since weapon specialization is pretty much everything that a fighter splash (4 levels, 5 for some build options who must take 4 pre-epic) provides, this is very close to just make a race able to wear harper boots or get a wm crit multiplier (5 levels devoted to a splash for both), breaking build complexity and giving a hard to calculate viability edge over BUR tier, way more than what a couple of feats or stat points allow for other races and builds. At the risk of exaggerate the comparison, it sounds very similar to +1 CL for a caster race, or just give paladin save boost for free. It ruins build diversity. I say normal (pre-epic) weapon specialization for +2 damage is already a fine boost for both, equivalent to 4 STR point of dmg, doesn't qualify for EWS if you do not actually splash at least 1 fighter level hence sacrifice pure option, and if you splash it saves you one feat. Plenty.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 14:52:11 GMT
Good points, all around. Seems like removing EWS and not giving it something in return (and here I'm talking specifically about Alu-fiend since that one hadn't been touched) seems to throw off the feat count a bit.
How would these look?
"Buomman" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Cleric - STR +6, DEX +4, WIS +4, INT +2, Listen +10 - Free Feats: WF/GWF/EWF: Sling, Improved Critical: Sling, SF/ESF: Listen, Divine Might - Other: Fast, QLSA: Listen, +1d8 to all damage types on divine bullets.
Removed WS/EWS: Sling, added Improved Critical: Sling.
"Alu-Fiend" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FCs: Fighter, Paladin / BC: Blackguard - STR +2, DEX +2, CON +2, INT +2, CHA +6, Persuade +8 - Free Feats: WF/GWF/EWF/WS: Rapier, Great Charisma I, Rapier Wit, Mounted Combat - Other: Charm Immunity
Removed EWS: Rapier, added Great Charisma I to keep the epic feat count the same.
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Post by Raj on Mar 13, 2016 16:17:01 GMT
Both seem cool changes. Buomman is not a clear upgrade to furchin but they both provide useful stuff, and I tend to rate that 50% cold imm as much as all that useful added listen (basically comparing what a couple of different UR augmentors provide), strength being useful for might so ye, not necessary to revolution it.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 17:16:10 GMT
Raj, any thoughts on my idea about Favored of Gruumsh? Would it be helpful at all, or are other races better?
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Post by simpetar on Mar 13, 2016 17:45:52 GMT
If you think slingers and smiters have a damage problem, the fix is not give both the possibility of +20 damage (at cost of two more feats availabe even if you're not a fighter), only when a XR is unlocked. This. Unfortunately, we are discussing subraces here, not (needed) class edits
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Post by woqued on Mar 13, 2016 18:04:35 GMT
Why do you want to change Favored of Gruumsh? The only issue with it is that it is Half-Orc - otherwise its pretty cool right? Other would be that it's for staffmonks which is sad but acceptable : P
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Post by Raj on Mar 13, 2016 18:30:49 GMT
Your proposed change doesn't really make it any better for 2handed monks than 1handed or dualwielding ones; you should make the special giving 5% conceal only if the offhand is empty, if possible, or thinking about something else.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 18:37:45 GMT
Why do you want to change Favored of Gruumsh? The only issue with it is that it is Half-Orc - otherwise its pretty cool right? Other would be that it's for staffmonks which is sad but acceptable : P I didn't originally think there was any serious problem with it, but it came up in discussion because "zomgstaffmonk2Hnerfunplayable." Your proposed change doesn't really make it any better for 2handed monks than 1handed or dualwielding ones; you should make the special giving 5% conceal only if the offhand is empty, if possible, or thinking about something else. Agreed that the special should only give 5% Empty Body bonus with empty offhand. Not really sure that there's a way to make it more specifically geared towards 2H monks, unless it we rip off Rhek and give it "when first Weapon Focus feat taken in a Large weapon character gets GWF, EWF, WS, EWS in that weapon," and simultaneously get rid of all of the other feats.
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Post by woqued on Mar 13, 2016 18:42:00 GMT
Staffmonk problems aren't solved by fixing the XR sub that is already good, if there are any problems they should be fixed with the class (if there are any - I never played one so I don't know) - no class problem should be fixed with a buff on the highest level of subraces, if possible.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 13, 2016 19:03:57 GMT
Agreed. The most recent suggestions weren't intended to address issues with the build itself, but instead expand the subby to accommodate additional builds that might actually see play.
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