The Moe Dirty Build - lvl 30 sorc - my first pass be gentle

[moe]

So, based on the suggestions received, this is my first shot at a lvl 30 Sorc

UPDATED: Changed starting stats, dropped Illusion and Enchantment, dropped Extend, added Maximize and Empower, dropped BBoD for Mords. Now ends on an Even 34 Cha @ lvl 30. I have 36 skill points left over.
UPDATE2: Changed stats again - dropped 2 Int for 4 Con - didn't need the extra skill points. Started the toon already.

I went Chaos Gnome - for the +6 Cha and the Bonus Spell Focus Illusion

___________: S D C W I Cha
Starting Stats: 10 08 14 08 14 18
After subrace : 10 10 10 08 16 22

Must be Lawful Good (for Paladin level)
All levels Sorcerer (except Paladin at level 3)
All points to Cha
Skill points: max Concentration, Lore, Spellcraft, and even 15 left over for Tumble

Feats:
01. Spell Penetration
03. Spell Focus Necromancy
06. Rapier Wit
09. Greater Spell Focus Necromancy
12. Greater Spell Penetration
15. Meta: Maximize Spell
18. Meta: Empower Spell
21. Epic Spell Penetration
24. Epic Spell Focus Necromancy, Great Charisma I
27. Great charisma II, Great charisma III
30. Great Charisma IV, Great charisma V

I ended up with the following Spells:

1) Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Sleep, Mage Armor, Sheldon's Persistent Blade

2) Shock Weapon, Flame Weapon, Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloud of Bewilderment, Flurry of Fumes

3) Greater Magic Weapon, Keen, Weapon of Impact, Needle Point

4) Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Stoneskin

5) Bigby's Interposing Hand, Cloudkill, Firebrand, Galvanic Cone

6) Circle of Death, IGMS, Acid Fog

7) Bigby's Grasping Hand, Finger of Death, Great Thunderclap

8) Bigby's Clenched Fist, Greater Sanctuary, Sunburst

9) Bigby's Crushing Hand, Mordekain's Disjunction, Wail of Banshee, BBoD Scrolls

[madzapper]

Just as it is, I'd swap enchantment for evocation and drop one of your great charisma's for meta: empower. Take mords over BBOD and use BBOD scrolls. At that level, I dunno if you need Illusion focus. My AC with pretty meh gear is 76 with 50% conceal. If you drop Illusion you can also take meta: maximize and epic spell penetration.

[cathedralmaster]

Your stats don't make any sense. If you need str or dex, use gear.

There's no point taking spell focus illusion if you're not using Weird. You don't need extend at that level. You need to take Ethereal Visage in your 6s.

[moe]

First of all I freely admit to being absolutely clueless - especially about Casters and spells - so I take NO Offense

This build is being made specifically to BE level 30 and be be to handle the level 30 and 35 Boss Tags - not as a solo, but as a party assist toon.

As far as the "schools" -
SF:Illusion came with Chaos Gnome (so I thought I'd max it out)
SF: Enchantment - When I went to take Greater SF: Necromancy - Enhancement was also displayed as an option (once again, I figured I'd take advantage of having a "free Spell Focus") I have no idea what spells go with what focus - fyi

I'm disappointed my stats don't make sense. I've tend to try to build "balanced" toons. Wisdom is the only Stat I have ever felt comfortable shorting a toon on. Somewhere in my senile memory I have this notion that toons needed to aim for at minimum of 14 for various reasons (some strength check, dexterity check, or enough skill points) I guess I , perhaps mistakenly, see it as a well rounded adventurer with a specialty in this case of Charisma. I don't want to be a "Glass Canon". It is a shortcoming of mine and much of the reason I posted this build, to be "set straight". Unfortunately, saying "It doesn't make sense" fails to point to a more appropriate answer. Perhaps that 1 extra Cha point I can get makes the difference in defeating the Bosses this build is being made for. If so, then absolutely, I must get that extra point.

I did wonder about all those Meta skills, but frankly lacked the basic knowledge to even make a stab at it. I was hoping that someone would pop in and say, "I'd trade X for Y to get Z". Some of the Sorc builds I looked at got Meta: Extend (so i did too) I see Maximize and Empower are also recommended - although Extend is NOT recommended then?

I assure you people that I worked on this build for hours. Not all of us are blessed with young minds. I am trying to avoid stupid mistakes before they happen. I will admit to wanting to know just enough to make this specific build work without having to learn all the ins and outs of Sorcery. Please forgive my ignorance and inability to understand what comes so naturally to some of you.

I very much appreciate any comments and criticisms

[woqued]

Metamagics are both for the benefit they provide (extend for longer lasting spells - generally for buffs) and slot management (1 spell level above normal). Empowered and Maximize are 2 and 3 levels above normal, and up damage. As you wish to reach optimal damage output, the ones that also boost the spell damage are superior to extend. This also because many of your mandatory buff spells don't really need to have extended duration (Ethereal Visage as example lasts for hours and hours) - the empowered and maximize will serve you better.

Getting multiple metamagic feats is so that with your limited slot amount, you will be able to slot all 6s with regular igms, all 8s with empowered igms and all 9s with maximized igms, as an example. Not saying you must do that, but it will up your damage vs these bosses by a large margin. Alternatively you can skip Maximize and pick up Extend + Empowered and have 6 igms, 7 igms, 8 igms and 9s with meteors or some other spell of choice. Point is, metamagics allow you a new found flexibility as well as a way to up your damage. Combining them is a skill you learn after playing spontaneous spellcasters enough.

I would not worry on your first playthrough; your setup is good enough. After taking it out for a testdrive you will have a better idea where to go next (with next reincarnation or next toon) if you so choose, or you can decide it was exactly what you needed despite what some forum warriors such as myself say.

[cathedralmaster]

Mar 12, 2016 4:35:45 GMT moe said:

I'm disappointed my stats don't make sense. I've tend to try to build "balanced" toons. Wisdom is the only Stat I have ever felt comfortable shorting a toon on. Somewhere in my senile memory I have this notion that toons needed to aim for at minimum of 14 for various reasons (some strength check, dexterity check, or enough skill points) I guess I , perhaps mistakenly, see it as a well rounded adventurer with a specialty in this case of Charisma. I don't want to be a "Glass Canon". It is a shortcoming of mine and much of the reason I posted this build, to be "set straight". Unfortunately, saying "It doesn't make sense" fails to point to a more appropriate answer. Perhaps that 1 extra Cha point I can get makes the difference in defeating the Bosses this build is being made for. If so, then absolutely, I must get that extra point.

Building a good character is a set of cost-benefit analyses. You want to maximize the good while minimizing the cost. Every decision needs to be calculated.

You don't need strength on a sorc. It gets you nothing other than allowing you to carry your gear. Don't bother putting any points into it. You don't need wisdom on a sorc outside of saves, which with the paladin level, means you don't need to put any points into that either. Dexterity is good for AC and reflex saves. You don't need it for the saves but if you have left over points (as in putting anything left into con or int only takes them to an odd number), dex is a good place to put them.

That leaves you with charisma, intelligence, and constitution. Charisma is vital, it's your sorc's main stat. It should be maxed. Having an odd number at the end however is a waste. DC only counts by even numbers. Constitution is your second most important. It measures your ability to withstand damage. Too little con and you'll be dying all the time. Intelligence is your third most important because it gets you the skills you need.

So put everything into charisma, figure what skills you want, determine the balance between con and int. In this case, you have a choice between 12 con/16 int or 16 con/14 int. Is that one extra skill worth 60 hp at level 30?

[moe]

I appreciate the explanations. As you can see (from the Updates) I dropped Str and Dex down to 10 and bumped Con up to 14, maxing Cha at 18. Int 14 gives me enough skill points. Thanks for your continued support.

[moe]

Moe Dirty is lvl 10 now, leveling nicely. Ready for the lvl 16 tags.

[somes]

I'm actually making a helper toons as well, my first one being for level 30 tags, and came to the conclusion that sorcerer is best for that level range due to most of the bosses needing mage help.

I decided however to drop rapier wit, and I don't have chaos gnome so I went human Rakshasa and took Enchantment feats. My logic is that it is better to buff all the weapons in your party then to spend one feat on just helping you, one person, attack. You will also have a lot of spell slots at level 30, you should not be meleeing!

I might be wrong about this, but isn't it pointless to take the Paladin level for saves? The reason people are concerned about saves is because of LL and Hell runs ignoring item immunities, but in your lower levels all you need is the right immunities to survive. I think +1 spell penetration from going 30 sorc is more useful, especially if you're planning to do the level 35 and 37 tags.

I also like the empower and maximize idea, and I would switch Great Thunderclap for Rebuke to kill bosses faster (there isn't room for extend, so taking rebuke with all the igms you have will help you with zeyra and mother corn), but great thunderclap is handy for mobs, so I think that decision is personal taste.

[cathedralmaster]

Mar 15, 2016 14:02:12 GMT somes said:

I decided however to drop rapier wit, and I don't have chaos gnome so I went human Rakshasa and took Enchantment feats. My logic is that it is better to buff all the weapons in your party then to spend one feat on just helping you, one person, attack. You will also have a lot of spell slots at level 30, you should not be meleeing!

I'd take Rapier Wit just for Hel and her cohorts.

Mar 15, 2016 14:02:12 GMT somes said:

I might be wrong about this, but isn't it pointless to take the Paladin level for saves? The reason people are concerned about saves is because of LL and Hell runs ignoring item immunities, but in your lower levels all you need is the right immunities to survive. I think +1 spell penetration from going 30 sorc is more useful, especially if you're planning to do the level 35 and 37 tags.

Spell Pen isn't a problem before the LLs so there's no real tradeoff to taking the paladin level. Going pure isn't really needed til the Hells. Saves on the other hand can help you survive dragon breath and greater ruins, etc..

[simpetar]

Mar 15, 2016 14:02:12 GMT somes said:

I might be wrong about this, but isn't it pointless to take the Paladin level for saves? The reason people are concerned about saves is because of LL and Hell runs ignoring item immunities, but in your lower levels all you need is the right immunities to survive. I think +1 spell penetration from going 30 sorc is more useful, especially if you're planning to do the level 35 and 37 tags.

Carry mord scrolls with you. Some tag bosses cast various buffs and single target Mord drops SR by 10. SR generally is not a problem until drows.

The first decent sorcerer caster staff is useable at lvl 33. If you do not plan to go this high, the best thing you can have is lvl 29 rare rapier and use rapier wit. You will be hitting stuff on regular basis that way and definitely so, if you buff yourself with Tenser's or True Strike.

[desocupado]

If he's a helper of level 30 tags it's worth to have auto-still III (instead of great cha III-V) due the ac with heavy armor and shield enabling you to tank most things (including dark elves arrows and dragons) drop maximize for still spell.

Also I suggest changing a few spells

1) Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Sleep, Mage Armor, Sheldon's Persistent Blade
2) Shock Weapon, Flame Weapon, Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloud of Bewilderment, Flurry of Fumes
3) Greater Magic Weapon, Keen, Weapon of Impact, Needle Point
4) Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm, Remove curse, Vortex of Teeth
5) Bigby's Interposing Hand, Energy Buffer, Flensing, Freezing Fog
6) Circle of Death, IGMS, UtD
7) Rebuke, Finger of Death, Great Thunderclap
8) Bigby's Clenched Fist, Greater Sanctuary, Incendiary Cloud
9) Bigby's Crushing Hand, Mordekain's Disjunction, Wail of Banshee

This will increase the exotic and esoteric damages and add more slot efficiency (in soups) and UtD should beat sunburst's DC (assuming it works on solis mobs).

[moe]

All great input folks - thanks!

As for Paladin saves: too late, did it at lvl 3
Rapier Wit: I like that I have something that I can HIT with, if necessary (and so far I've enjoyed just buffing the crap outta my rapier and wreaking havoc - but that's just the Melee inme - hehehehe) My Bow skill sucks with 10 Dex.

Auto-Still vs Great CHA: Clueless here. With my gnome the Rapier is a Two Handed weapon - so I can't "sword and board". I'm still wearing robes. So Auto-Still will allow me to cast while in armor?

Still spell vs Maximize: Dropping the Grt Cha above will leave my toon on an odd number. Shouldn't I drop another Grt Cha for the Still Spell and keep Maximize?

I will try the new recommended spells next level I get. BUT...
Don't I still need Wall of Fire for Zhents? Wall off the door, drop BBoD on the other side, wait. . . .

At 3 I dropped Weapon of Impact and Needlepoint for Gust of Wind and Displacement (area cleanup and buff)
At 5 Drop Firebrand? I have been having fun with that instead of shooting arrows. I did notice that Cloudkill didn't do a whole lot (so far)
Rebuke vs Bigby 7 - I thought Bigby 7 was something people recommended. but with 3 other Bigby's I guess it's okay
Incendiary Cloud vs Sunburst - I do like the Incendiary Cloud I am getting from scrolls. The only time I recall using Sunburst was on the PoW (on another toon) seemed to work nicely.

I love all the input and it's helping me learn. Thanks for ALL the comments and explanations!

Side Note: I JUST started to wield my casting power on my last run. The first time I went thru the bugbears I used my crossbow to take out the archers. THIS time I used Firebrand to melt them in their shoes. I dropped am incendiary Cloud at the base of the platform in the center and let my Persistent blade occupy them as they burned. My "empowered Rapier" put an end to anyone who didn't die peacefully. hehehehe (still got my Melee in there -lol)

[somes]

Mar 15, 2016 14:23:13 GMT cathedralmaster said:

Mar 15, 2016 14:02:12 GMT somes said:

I decided however to drop rapier wit, and I don't have chaos gnome so I went human Rakshasa and took Enchantment feats. My logic is that it is better to buff all the weapons in your party then to spend one feat on just helping you, one person, attack. You will also have a lot of spell slots at level 30, you should not be meleeing!

I'd take Rapier Wit just for Hel and her cohorts.

Mar 15, 2016 14:02:12 GMT somes said:

I might be wrong about this, but isn't it pointless to take the Paladin level for saves? The reason people are concerned about saves is because of LL and Hell runs ignoring item immunities, but in your lower levels all you need is the right immunities to survive. I think +1 spell penetration from going 30 sorc is more useful, especially if you're planning to do the level 35 and 37 tags.

Spell Pen isn't a problem before the LLs so there's no real tradeoff to taking the paladin level. Going pure isn't really needed til the Hells. Saves on the other hand can help you survive dragon breath and greater ruins, etc..

Good post, pretty much disputed everything I said. I would have still dropped rapier wit, but with the knowledge of what gear is available, it's better to use a rapier. Also gives you another way to beat up rahzid once you're out of spells.

I made the mistake of thinking that the dragon after axillar was a 30 tag.

I would personally try to fit in both the Enchantment feats (especially with rapier wit) and auto still like deso suggested. If SR isn't an issue at all, can spell pen feats be dropped?

Ironically enough I often die to greater ruins, so I would take the Paladin level as well.

[desocupado]

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

As for Paladin saves: too late, did it at lvl 3
Rapier Wit: I like that I have something that I can HIT with, if necessary (and so far I've enjoyed just buffing the crap outta my rapier and wreaking havoc - but that's just the Melee inme - hehehehe) My Bow skill sucks with 10 Dex.

Charisma saves are very useful in Pre-LL - tough I would have delayed paladin splash to lvl 20 to dump 23 point into discipline (I think there's a couple of enemies that knockdown but knockdown immunity might be enough). Rapier will make the leveling process quite smooth too.

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

Auto-Still vs Great CHA: Clueless here. With my gnome the Rapier is a Two Handed weapon - so I can't "sword and board". I'm still wearing robes. So Auto-Still will allow me to cast while in armor?

True. gnome can't use rapier with a shield - that sad. In that case pick ethereal visage at 6 for concealment.

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

Still spell vs Maximize: Dropping the Grt Cha above will leave my toon on an odd number. Shouldn't I drop another Grt Cha for the Still Spell and keep Maximize?

You could pick WF or IC if that the case. (i didn't take in account you had just 7 stat points) - ditch auto still for now - it's probably better to try that later with elf (to get rapier proficiency) raksha (good cha bonus) or a better subrace.

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

I will try the new recommended spells next level I get. BUT...
Don't I still need Wall of Fire for Zhents? Wall off the door, drop BBoD on the other side, wait. . . .

That's one way to do it. I suppos it would go smoother - leave remove curse out (it's only useful to help newbies to remove a certain cursed item)

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

At 3 I dropped Weapon of Impact and Needlepoint for Gust of Wind and Displacement (area cleanup and buff)

Keep needle point to help with the rapier - check ethereal visage (6) x displacement

Mar 15, 2016 15:46:53 GMT moe said:

At 5 Drop Firebrand? I have been having fun with that instead of shooting arrows. I did notice that Cloudkill didn't do a whole lot (so far)
Rebuke vs Bigby 7 - I thought Bigby 7 was something people recommended. but with 3 other Bigby's I guess it's okay
Incendiary Cloud vs Sunburst - I do like the Incendiary Cloud I am getting from scrolls. The only time I recall using Sunburst was on the PoW (on another toon) seemed to work nicely.

scroll spells are limited in cl i.e. they will become useless for damage soon