|
Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 16, 2016 6:32:46 GMT
Hey all. I've been doing speedrunning for the past few years, and for some of that time, I've been pondering the possibility of speedrunning Higher Ground - just to immortality, but also including all tag bosses available before the Immortal run, including MOAD and the Ruined Academy Headmaster.
Right now I'm throwing around build ideas. I have a lot of good direction going here, especially thanks to my experiences playing Hardcore, which tends to make one intimately familiar with the pre-immortal tag bosses. In my Hardcore travels, I even ended up making several "tag helper" characters which were designed to perform well at a specific level - I made one for 30, 35, and 40. This build will probably strongly resemble some of those.
Solo play is going to be required for this, so what I need is a character that can handle every single boss completely alone, and I'm also only using open subraces and no pre-obtained gear. Thus, fixed drops and shop gear will be very important. I will need something that has the potential to deliver a kill on every single boss, possibly without any resting - this requires a lot of sustainable damage, but pure tank builds cannot output good damage without support buffs. Straight caster builds would not be sustainable enough even with spellslot gear, and without it, they run dry almost instantly on any respectably long excursion - Manatakloss and the Hell Forge would be impossible. Thus, a hybrid is necessary. Herald might just be able to wade through without running out of gas, but I'm currently intending to use a Battle Cleric, which performed well as a tag helper.
----------
The subrace should have an experience bonus, as any length of grind drives up the time for this challenge dramatically. The human Genasi subraces are really nice for this, despite the wisdom penalty. For a while I was planning Earth Genasi with a fighter splash, but I ran into a problem: Cleric sucks noodles for the first few levels. It only gets level 2 from the Rowan Guardian, and has to rely on smashy sticks with no area damage right out of the gate.
So now I'm thinking Battle Theurge. Wizard gets Rowan level 3, which means instant access to Invisibility, Burning Hands, and Combust, plus a free familiar. Wizard was actually my first draft concept before I considered Battle Cleric - it's incredibly fast in the first 10-15 levels. Rogue is also going to be necessary, as I need a way to get the books and Crown, and Wizard isn't sustainable enough through no-rest areas to be able to count on a Pixie to do the job.
So, Air Genasi Theurge for the experience bonus, and rogue splash. Plant domain for Creeping Doom, not sure about second domain as I already get Wall of Fire, Energy Buffer, and Stoneskin from Wizard. Could get a second rack of Divine Powers, I suppose, as Extend may not fit in this build. I will need Concentration, Open Lock, Disable Trap, and Tumble maxed; Discipline could potentially be a problem in the face of Lolth, with no Fighter splash, but I have a few things going for me: first, I will have Ethereal Visage AND the Gift of Undeath; second, if I take Wizard 17, I will only need to handle Lolth until I can control her. Now I have to come up with how many levels to take in each class, and feat selection. Still Spell is probably going to be a thing, perhaps even Automatic Still Spell 3. Illusion focus is required to boost bugs and Visage, Conjuration focus could be super nice with Blade Barrier, Evards, and summons. Enchantment could provide Girding if I decide not to grab Lolth, and if I don't take Enchantment, Transmutation would be +16 for the endgame, making do with +11 (spell focus from item) until then. Sadly no Monk splash, so no Intuitive Attack or monk AC - it's going to be either concealment or full plate regalia. Second rack of spells is likely to be incredibly nice against stuff like Zerya.
At this point, I'd like to get some input / ideas from other experienced players before I actually take a shot at this run, to minimize large adjustments down the line. I don't really need information about particular enemies or drops or anything like that, as that's info I'll be gathering and parsing soon - but if there's a strat against a particular boss, feel free to share. I already know about stuff like Silence on Ruin-casters, and general boss elemental weaknesses. Mostly interested in build ideas right now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 6:57:35 GMT
I think a caster is going to be MUCH more effective than a melee, even a self-buffing one like Battle Cleric.
The time lost due to resting is negligible next to the increased speed of grinding XP (think mass-spawning a map and nuking it down, vs attacking targets one at a time), and more importantly, the time required for a non-caster to kill some of the later tag bosses. Think about bosses like Mother of Corn, 32/40 Dragons, Queen Zerya etc... while it is likely technically possible to solo them with a melee, many of these would probably take 15+ minutes of swinging at the minimum.
In fact, I am not even sure if any single class is able to solo the Mother of All Dragons, due to ridiculous immunities and extremely high regeneration. If anyone can, it's definitely a caster. Also note that two lever-pullers are required to complete the Lolth tag, so it technically cannot be solo'd at all.
You can possibly get XP by completing the quests, because the quests loosely follow the same progression as the tags so with the exception of 2-3, they don't take you out of the way significantly. But it may be faster to have two separate 'phases', where one is grinding XP at the fastest place possible (Zhents?) and the other is blitzing through tags.
On that note, I also disagree that casters are going to 'run dry quickly', it all depends on how you manage your spells - if you nuke down everything you see, then sure, but if you skip most tag-minions and attain the kill-count by massing and nuking, then its quite realistic to commonly rest only once, or less, per tag (some of the later bosses will require multiple rests though, due to insane immunities).
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Mar 16, 2016 7:26:42 GMT
Welcome back You have quite some high expectations from one build, especially open subby. Is it definitely possible to kill drows and immo in one go, without midfight resting; heralds can do that with empowered or maximized Cloudkill and lots of FoDs / Rebukes. You can also tame the bird at low levels, that will speed leveling up (almost as if you had bonus xp). Heralds cannot initially use the crit ring, but if you are evil, it takes only 50ish UMD, which you can achieve with rogue splash and perhaps ESF. There are two downsides though: 1. you have no means to neutralize mobs with bigbies so they are free to run after your taggers and 2. open subbies that have bonus to charisma have penalty to wis and vice versa, the only exception is the squishy female drow. Theurges can rarely kill those bosses without resting. When you run out of spells and resort to hitting them with a weapon, you need great AB (most likely from Intuitive Attack) and lots of exotic damage. Those weapons do not come from shops. The physical soup works to a degree, but is long and tedious, try to kill MoAD or immo with BB+bugs+Everards. You will get grabs and Silence, so your taggers will be somewhat safe, but you will probably need to rest sooner or later and CC will wear off. Note: you cannot grab immo or MoAD anyways. Most helpers you will see are sorcs. They have more casts per rest than anything, even with bad gear. All they need to do during boss fight is spam 4 rows of IGMS, rest once, repeat and finish the job. No access to Silence though, so GR spam could be an issue. Buffed lvl 38 pixie can hand handle the job, so you are free to splash 2 BG for armors, saves and the ring. If you want to stick with theurge I suggest Plant (bugs and Barkskin) and War (Aura of Vitality). Summons' days of glory are long over. You will find yourself using BBoD most of the time. Only summons from epic spells are relevant in the late 30s tags: Balor for arcane theurges and sorcs (comes from enchantment, synergy with GMW) and Death Phantasm for clerics / divine theurges (illusion, synergy with bugs).
|
|
|
Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 16, 2016 8:04:41 GMT
By "casters are going to run dry quickly," I mean that even a Sorcerer is not going to be able to muscle through all of the Crown Sanctum or the Immortal fight without a rest. I did see some mention of Intuitive Attack, though. The main reason for battle cleric in the first place is that a full few racks of bugs with Illusion behind them is, by itself, enough to chew through some really resilient endgame stuff, even the Immortal can't last against that, I think. AB isn't going to be a concern with Divine Power and other AB buffs in there - I had planned to try to go Strength, but we'll see. I never had much trouble hitting enemies on my other Battle Clerics, though I wasn't trying for Theurge with them. Staffmaster could also sustain through the longer stuff, but has serious problems surviving.
For experience and mopping up crowds, I have options. Harm is a definite strength, and with strong melee capabilities, while I won't be able to mow down Zhentarim by the dozens, I will be able to exploit some key places earlier on, like Rift Canyon, Umber Maze, and eventually, Heal against Deepbats. If memory serves, quest experience is still rather strong in places... does subrace bonus class affect this? I'm not going to consider the Oltum, as I've never needed it to go fast while leveling when it would be useful, and as I'll be killing tag bosses almost right away, there will be plenty of excuses to pick up quest items and extra kills.
My biggest concerns are MOAD and Lolth. The rest doesn't scare me, but MOAD may not actually succumb to even the best bugs, and Lolth has that thing where she makes you fight 489356 copies of herself. MOAD is, in fact, the biggest obstacle to this challenge, I think. I know neither she nor the Immortal can be grabbed, grabs are really just for Lolth spiders. Immortal can be interposing handed, though, which is really nice. Staffmaster could definitely drop MOAD by itself without a rest, provided it can survive.
At this point, the biggest build decisions if I'm going with melee theurge are:
1) Level 9 spells for Wizard or Cleric? Or maybe both and neglect epic spells? If I try for epic spells, I think level 9 wizard is better, with Crushing Hand, and level 9 cleric spells don't offer much with a low wisdom. I'm not terribly impressed with epic spells. Eternal Return / Contingency can be mimicked with Rebirth Stones, Bigby Swarm is nice but if I went that route I'd have crushing anyway, Death of Magic is nice for immortal heals but only worth it if I take Necro for some other reason. Conversion I can't see really doing anything to any boss I'd have trouble with, Visage of Doom would be automatic with bug boost focus but it's really just a flanking tool in place of BBOD. Miracle is near useless solo. I think the only ones I really like are Girding and IOF.
2) 2 or 3 Rogue levels? Evading breath weapons is nice, but my Reflex may not be great. Another build consideration for the sake of speed is when to splash OL/DT early so as to get a powerful item from a locked chest. I suppose I'll find out if there's anything worthwhile when I do my research.
3) Feat selection. Auto-Still 3 is an option, Illusion is required, Conjuration may be great, SP feats probably necessary for stuff like Lolth and MOAD, I'll want Empower for bugs and Silent so I can refresh Divine Power while blocking Ruins. Weapon Focus feats very likely, going to take a while to know what weapon type that's going to be - it'll probably be whatever I use to kill MOAD or the Immortal. Not terribly worried about exotics on weapons, the Mystic weapons in shops exist, and I seem to remember a few fixed drops that could work for this purpose. Also possible to get lucky with a 29/35, and there's the Prismatic Blade off Glith that takes buffs from all three types for general purpose, if I take exotic. Critical feats should not be relevant. Unfortunately, losing Fighter I only get Simple and Rogue profs, taking Martial or Exotic would be based on availability of strong fixed weapon drops. If I take Trans for IOF, I also get Barkskin from Plant that will free up amulet slot.
|
|
|
Post by Retribution on Mar 16, 2016 8:47:32 GMT
Might be worth a mention that you can leave map to rest without despawning now (not sure how long since you last played). It's got a 2 or 5 minute timer, rather than instant despawn
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2016 11:38:07 GMT
Lifethreader can do mass exotic/physical damage - it's pretty good and can be played like a battle cleric early (it's been a long time since I played one in pre-LL)
Anyone doing stuff alone is bound to die to a greater ruin. rebirth stones ofc
Maybe a cleric with illusion (creeps and epic summon) and conjuration (blades) can do some extra punch on top of spamming destruction and rebuke on bosses - spell mantles tend to be a problem tough - maybe a rogue splash with umd for mord scrolls?
Herald with wisdom and monk splash should probably handle stuff quite well as pointed earlier even if somewhat squishy. Probably too squishy as open subrace
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Mar 16, 2016 13:59:47 GMT
Its a 'party' server so some of the stuff is designed to be difficult to solo. Most of your problems are going to be in the 30+ tag range as the ones below this are relatively easy to solo with multiple different builds. Ones that I can think of are as follows - Mother of the Corn - Immune to pretty much all but exotic damage Queen Zerya - Immune to pretty much all but exotic damage and has a lot of HPs Captain Angus Materi - Has real Dev Crit so get unlucky and you're dead Hel and cohorts - Immune to most spells, usually require beating to death with buffed Sonic damage weapons Deadpool - Immune to pretty much all but exotic damage Wastalgraniq - Immune to most spells, extremely resistant to several damage types Immortal - Immune to pretty much all but exotic damage, has multiple heals/autorezzes, physical damage does squat, disarms you for fun thereby de-buffing your weapon or removing memorised spells, has a stupid amount of Greater Ruins, can Mord away your buffs and hits like he's on Angel Dust! If you are attempting to kill him through melee damage bring your breakfast, lunch and tea as you're going to be there a while.
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Mar 16, 2016 14:32:13 GMT
Funny idea: how about slinger? You get access to exotic damage and never have to worry about weapon. Great, long term AB buff. Crit immunity from the ring. Bugs and the corresponding (near to full power) epic summon. Silence. Bigby 5. You lose Bigby 9, but can maintain all other things you have mentioned this far. And you can still splash rogue (or something else) for little cost.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2016 14:47:28 GMT
When I used to speed run (using quest 10x current xp), I went with the proverbial Rapier wit Sorc 39/paladin 1 with auto still III. Then I reincarnated before doing the non-immortal only tags.
I think a slinger can't hit (or kill) some bosses (Zerya comes to mind).
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Mar 16, 2016 14:59:39 GMT
I think a slinger can't hit (or kill) some bosses (Zerya comes to mind). Slingers get +12 to +15 attack bonus on their weapon (depending on enchantment foci), 7d8 divine damage every hit, 5-6 attacks per round (depending on Rapid Fire), and their magic AB bonus is capped. If these attacks land, we are talking 42d8 divine damage a round at lvl 35. Slingers definitely can hit and kill bosses, it is in LLs+ where it gets worse.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2016 15:02:47 GMT
Didn't zerya had like 99% concealment? (memory rusty on this one - but I don't remember bashing her with success) Slinger also pack BAB 15 so some of that divine power bonus is canceled.
MoC had deflect arrows, Epic Dodge and concealment (should prove troublesome too).
|
|
|
Post by condude1 on Mar 16, 2016 16:25:52 GMT
The main problem with heralds will be before level 32. Being a sorceror with most of your stats into Wisdom or vice versa REALLY hurts. Afterr level 32, when you get herald status, I think a herald can take down the rest of the tags.
|
|
|
Post by Torin on Mar 16, 2016 18:55:05 GMT
I did that with my staffmaster (STR-uni with monk splash) in -HC- . highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/22622/samji-wizard-weapon-master-monk That build requires Stargazer at least. For an open subby, you could take the wisdom based variant (http://highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/21151/wise-staff-wizard-weapon-master) but since -HC- can not reincernate, I would not try it... At Lolth, someone has to pull the second lever for you. Lolth is the most challenging fight soloing in -HC-. I tried Slinger which could work, but the damage is that low that it takes ages. Welcome back, Johannhowitzer!
|
|
|
Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 16, 2016 20:15:53 GMT
Thanks for all the ideas! Standout stuff so far is Rapier Wit mage, Threader, Slinger, and Herald. For now, I'm going with melee Theurge, but I may come back to these ideas. Thank you for mentioning the despawn timer - I remembered something was done about the despawn but I wasn't sure and didn't want to count on it.
Yep, I know all this.
MoC - Destruction, IGMS, bugs. AC too high to hit with Evards and BB. Zerya - Hallway outside allows free rest, vulnerable to Bigby 9, IGMS, destruct. Angus - Gift of Undeath, decent AC/resists, and Storm of Vengeance. (He hates electricity.) Hel - Bugs work for her iirc. Silence completely wrecks her entire party. Deadpool - Have to rely on bugs and plink damage. Wastal - Hates cold. Frost Weapon all day long. Immortal - Bugs, FoD, Destruct. I've seen bugs alone wreck him before. There's a strong reason Plant domain is core to this build. Death of Magic is super nice if you can afford it, maybe pickpocket could work too? I don't know his DC. It's looking like I'll have some extra points so I might as well try.
I will likely be trying a first draft run of this sometime tomorrow, or otherwise relatively soon - if you want to watch, make more suggestions, tell me how much I'm doing it wrong, etc., you can find me at twitch.tv/johannhowitzer.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2016 20:42:04 GMT
Why not a intuitive attack cleric-theurge? (or just intuitive cleric) - Personally i wouldn't recommended theurges for open subrace. A intuitive attack cleric could pack illusion (summon creeps) and iof (soak bypass) - how did the battle cleric go?
Also theurges have a much harder time 12-26 due the lack of higher level spells.
|
|