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Post by louisvilleslugger on Mar 22, 2016 1:54:43 GMT
PDK is currently unplayable at all in the module. I'd like to start a discussion on how to make them more of an option.
Here's a start (ideas):
1. Make the class count toward smiter for damage dice/recharge/etc. (this would allow 35P/5PDK or 5P/5PDK/30BG etc.)
2. Give class a "item". Similar to harper scout. Give it a bonus damage for 5 min x2 daily (rather than bonus attacks 5 min/x2) or a really buff immunity (like auto-20 vs. saves for 5 min).
3. Please add some ideas!
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 22, 2016 2:11:21 GMT
I think idea of a PDK class secret with a usable defensive ability would be a very nice addition. The only problem is how do you balance something like that? It has to be good enough that it gives incentive to play the class, but not so good that it becomes a must-have.
I think auto-20s a bit overboard, but maybe something like complete KD immunity in addition to some % damage immunities might work?
I also think the class abilities could use a rework:
Current (// Commentary):
Fear
- The PDK Fear spell has been changed to an AC penalty effect of (Hit Dice including LLs + 1) / 8. The AC penalty does not stack with curse song. The duration has been increased to 1 round per point of Charisma modifier. If the character has 41 or more Hit Dice and 5 levels of PDK, then the duration is doubled. // Does PDK Fear also not have a save anymore? One use per day is pretty sad for what's essentially a far weaker single-target bard curse.
Final Stand
- Instead of granting temporary hit points, it brings all allies in a Large radius to their feet, removing knockdown effects. The radius increases by 1m for every 6 points of Charisma modifier the PDK has, up to a maximum of double the normal radius at 70 Charisma. It can be used 2 + (Lvl / 10) times per day to a max of 8.
Heroic Shield
- Heroic Shield now grants (PDK level + 1) Dodge AC to the targeted ally for (Cha modifier) rounds. // This just isn't useful, maybe change it to some cool kind of niche immunity?
Inspire Courage
- PDK Inspire Courage now removes fear in addition to its normal effects, and grants temporary immunity to fear effects. Its duration has been extended to 5 rounds per level of PDK, and a second use per day has been added. // Useful in certain situations, might not need a change per se, but additional uses maybe?
Oath of Wrath
- The PDK Oath of Wrath feat also grants critical immunity versus the racial type of the enemy chosen for the duration. The duration doubles to four times the character's PDK levels at level 41. // This is so specific that I can't imagine ever using it. It seems like it might need a complete overhaul.
Rallying Cry
- PDK Rallying Cry AB bonus has been rescaled to the bard song AB bonus progression of 1 plus 1 for every 10 additional hit dice including legendary levels, up to a maximum of 6 at 51 hit dice. This bonus does not stack with bard song. The duration has been increased to 1 round per point of Charisma modifier. If the character has 41 or more hit dice and 5 levels of PDK, then the duration is doubled. // This one's probably fine, but maybe add some kind of damage bonus to it as well?
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Post by Raj on Mar 22, 2016 15:56:49 GMT
What really kills the class is the damn low amount of uses per day for all abilities. They could also get a very powerful item you can moliate and be a solid alternative to HS splash, probably a more defensive one.
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2016 15:58:52 GMT
What really kills the class is the damn low amount of uses per day for all abilities. They could also get a very powerful item you can moliate and be a solid alternative to HS splash, probably a more defensive one. Purple Dragon's Awe, same duration / uses as HS boots except aura reducing 1 attack per round from mobs in a medium radius around PDK <3 |
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Post by simpetar on Mar 22, 2016 16:53:00 GMT
How about AC buff for the party, stacking +120 Craft Armor effect, for 5 turns, twice a rest. They are supposed to be the leaders and commanders.  Put it on a cloak with something like 5x Epic Energy Resist II and/or Epic Damage Reduction III and you've got yourself a very much wearable item. Atm PDKs make the most sense on tanks with high charisma, because most of their abilities scale with cha; making them count as smiter levels is a nice touch. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2016 13:36:36 GMT
I'd prefer to make them usable without resort to a class item, if possible. Items don't scale well. What uses would their abilities need to make them more appealing? What other edits? The smite suggestion does seem to fit. Anyone see a problem with it?
Funky
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Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2016 14:10:10 GMT
I'd prefer to make them usable without resort to a class item, if possible. Items don't scale well. What uses would their abilities need to make them more appealing? What other edits? The smite suggestion does seem to fit. Anyone see a problem with it? Funky This probably applies to classes that have the potential to be control class in LLs, or classes that have undisputed benefits, such as 4 fighter lvls (for WS line) or pally / BG splash for saves. PDK more resembles to HS, and HS is taken for the boots. Nobody takes HS primarily for the awesome GR potions that can be bought, if one is rich enough, and the 2 bonus epic feats are returned investment from the hefty HS requirements. (Moliated) Boots of the Wanderer do not "scale well", they are nothing short of Artifact level item, Vestige at the very least (compare to March of Misdirection). From the short time I had PDK splash on my CoT and actively played it, I used mostly 2 abilities: Final Stand and Inspire Courage. Final Stand is very handy, as aoe pt2 assist with 8 uses per rest. Inspire Courage was mainly when bard was slacking with DoD. The rest of the abilities are situational as their best, mainly due to non-stacking nature with similar effects. - Fear does not stack with curse song, Rallying Cry with song. I suppose that is form the era when you were making the class edits to make party composition easier (less dependant on bard presence), but as soon as a real bard / chanter / Harpy+Leonal shifter appears, these 2 abilities are useless. There is a cure right there: reduce the numbers and make them stack, and everybody will love PDKs. - Heroic Shield is an absolutely emergency tool to help a single demi toon who just died in deep hells, before they get their AC back from song, UEF etc. It has niche use, but it still is use. If Heroic Shield was a swift action to emphasize the state of "emergency tool", it would probably be much more convenient and useful. - Oath of Wrath is debatable. When you need crit immunity, you want to be crit immune fully, not to just some mobs. In Hells (and Abyss to an extent), this is easy, because most spawns have 1 type predominant, but elsewhere it remains to be seen. In all fairness, I cannot really judge the usefulness of Heroic Shield: as I wrote above, PDK is great on divine tanks with innately high charisma, because of the scaling. Mine was on CoT who is crit immune by default. Note: I reincarnated my CoT from having PDK splash, to having 4 fighter levels, guess why  |
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Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2016 15:45:33 GMT
Funky, since you seem to like my analyses, here are some more for you PDK vs. HS splash1. PDK requirements are 8 total skill points and 1 (currently) useless feat. HS requirements are 20 total skill points and 2 feats, one of which is potentially good. HS in reality requires more skills, because of the need to cross-class pick some. HS investment pays off in epic levels, giving either 2 free dex or cha. PDK investment does not pay off. 2. PDK has 1 really useful and unique ability (Final Stand), and 5 very situational abilities (the rest). HS can make GR potions for low cost, and 2 passive stacking bonuses (Lliira's Heart and Deneir's Eye). 3. HS has the boots (elaborated above), PDK has no class item. 4. PDK is 1/1 BAB class and can safely be taken pre-epic for BAB boost. HS is 3/4 BAB class and needs to be taken in epic levels for the maximum effect. 5. HS can take cross-class UMD in LLs. PDK has no such thing. 6. HS levels help with bard song. PDK (if that suggestion makes it) could help with smiting. PDK vs. splashing other relevant classes (if they are not the control class) 1. Fighter: usually 4 levels, 3 free weapon feats, 2 of which are WS and EWS and enable LWS + PWS. 2. Paladin: 1 level for saves (and armor + shield proficiencies if needed), 2 levels for Aura of Courage, 3 levels for Divine Might and free disease immunity. 3. Monk: 1 level for Evasion, wisdom AC, unarmed progression. More monk levels give speed boost, bonus to saves (all 3 saves are high), Improved Evasion at 9, more AC. 4. BG: access to hell / hive poisons, access to Gift of Undeath, 2 levels for save (even while being evil) 5. Rogue: rogue skills, Evasion, lots of skill points 6. Ranger (rare splash): 1/1 BAB easy qualifying class for SD or assassin (the only 1/1 with Hide and MS as class skills), gives bonus feats that can be turned into GSF/ESF. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2016 15:51:45 GMT
I'd prefer to make them usable without resort to a class item, if possible. Items don't scale well. What uses would their abilities need to make them more appealing? What other edits? The smite suggestion does seem to fit. Anyone see a problem with it? Funky This probably applies to classes that have the potential to be control class in LLs, or classes that have undisputed benefits, such as 4 fighter lvls (for WS line) or pally / BG splash for saves. PDK more resembles to HS, and HS is taken for the boots. Nobody takes HS primarily for the awesome GR potions that can be bought, if one is rich enough, and the 2 bonus epic feats are returned investment from the hefty HS requirements. (Moliated) Boots of the Wanderer do not "scale well", they are nothing short of Artifact level item, Vestige at the very least (compare to March of Misdirection). Moliated boots ARE scaled - that's my point (cf. the unmoliated versions). The Harper boots date back to a much less sophisticated era, when we had a lot fewer modwide systems in place. The Moliated boots were the simplest fix to an imperfect class edit, and they may not be the last where HS is concerned. For every class that we link indelibly to an item, we also commit to an entire line of items - hopefully only two, but more likely three. We also create odd and unpredictable gear asymmetries. Creating a new link of this type would be the last resort, in terms of zots, and perhaps in terms of good building practice. It is not the go-to solution. Funky |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 23, 2016 16:14:36 GMT
I'd prefer to make them usable without resort to a class item, if possible. Items don't scale well. What uses would their abilities need to make them more appealing? What other edits? The smite suggestion does seem to fit. Anyone see a problem with it? Funky For smiters, little issue - tough PDK would be most useful for BG and CoT, since paladin would lose CL to get it on top of 2 epic feats. (BG also lose CL they could have with paladin levels) I wouldn't mind seeing HS getting smite scaling as well. (personally I would love to see most tank class' features being splash friendly - scaling of character level instead of class level - while class level itself unlock the features - but this is a different matter) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now onto PDK ideas - I've quoted quite a handful from earlier attempts to address this issue: First one similar to what has been posted: A suggestion (besides the buffs suggested on another thread) would be: Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, Assassin and Bard count PDK levels for ability and spell casting purposes. Some previous ability specific buffs: I can only tell my experience 1-40 with the build I posted above (which seemed to have decent synergy with PDK). I can suggest a few buffs - Inspire Courage - Could be a quick action
- Fear - Could have (Cha modifier +5) duration - still doubling at 41
- Heroic Shield - Could have a secondary effect granting temporary HPs like a bard song to the target - like a true "shield" spell
- Oath of Wrath - Racial bonuses could scale to very high numbers to offset the limited duration (like up +20 bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills vs. that opponent racial group at Character level 60)
- Rallying Cry - While AB boost is somewhat nice, if you lack a true song, it's nearly pointless if you have a bard. Maybe it could grant an additional Attack per round (like Warchanter's haste). Duration = (Cha modifier + 5) would be nice as well.
If anything Oath of Wrath and Fear need to feel stronger, since they are single casting per rest. Heroic Shield needs an incentive to use on healthy targets (about 25 temporary hp per 5 character levels ok and fitting enough for a weak shield). Rallying Cry is really uninteresting at the moment. An additional attack per round would be a nice buff for tanks that lack extra attacks, but due limited uses per day one would needs to balance when to recast for someone who just died, of for oneself. Mass FoM would be a sweet alternative. My recently in the spotlight post have some other ideas for new features: (and a recollection of some older ideas too) |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 23, 2016 16:42:57 GMT
This probably applies to classes that have the potential to be control class in LLs, or classes that have undisputed benefits, such as 4 fighter lvls (for WS line) or pally / BG splash for saves. PDK more resembles to HS, and HS is taken for the boots. Nobody takes HS primarily for the awesome GR potions that can be bought, if one is rich enough, and the 2 bonus epic feats are returned investment from the hefty HS requirements. (Moliated) Boots of the Wanderer do not "scale well", they are nothing short of Artifact level item, Vestige at the very least (compare to March of Misdirection). Moliated boots ARE scaled - that's my point (cf. the unmoliated versions). The Harper boots date back to a much less sophisticated era, when we had a lot fewer modwide systems in place. The Moliated boots were the simplest fix to an imperfect class edit, and they may not be the last where HS is concerned. For every class that we link indelibly to an item, we also commit to an entire line of items - hopefully only two, but more likely three. We also create odd and unpredictable gear asymmetries. Creating a new link of this type would be the last resort, in terms of zots, and perhaps in terms of good building practice. It is not the go-to solution. Funky So would it make sense to remove extra attack aspect of the boots and add it directly to the character with HS 5, while the current boots of wanderer keep the immunity and movement speed? (then add another set boots/gear with different uses) |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2016 16:54:10 GMT
So would it make sense to remove extra attack aspect of the boots and add it directly to the character with HS 5, while the current boots of wanderer keep the immunity and movement speed? (then add another set boots/gear with different uses) No, it wouldn't. Again, that's just more dev time to no major gain - one of the problems with using items. Focus on things that need help. Funky |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2016 17:05:08 GMT
Now onto PDK ideas - I've quoted quite a handful from earlier attempts to address this issue: Thank you for posting them. They need the analysis to go with, however. What impact would the edits have on class balance serverwide? Does it actually increase build diversity? Throw power balance off? Let's take, by way of example, the proposed spell level edits. Suppose we let PDK count for: Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, Assassin and Bard where class levels count for spells. What outcome? We need to look at builds for all those classes and see how they would be impacted. The most obvious question is: would there still be any reason NOT to take PDK for any of those classes? Is that reason strong enough to allow rationales for either build decision? On the one hand, we have added a few more insta-stand items, making me slightly more willing to increase uses of that for PDK. Too many, however, and suddenly it's 'must have'. Another potential problem: the suggestion for +120 CA for 5 turns, 2 per rest. Means PDK toons have little reason to take CA, and to a lesser extent their partymates. All-or-nothing edits like this are typically way over the top. Long story short: great suggestions, but they need a much more thorough thinking through. Don't make me chew your food for you.  Funky |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 23, 2016 17:20:22 GMT
Fair enough. I personally like PDK conceptually because it gives active abilities to a tank.
PDK cost 2 things
A - Feat + skills (minor cost)
B - Class slot and 5 class levels (this is actually the huge cost)
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Paladins, Rangers and bards obviously loses 2 epic feats (since it'll be 35/5 at most) to pick up PDK. Bard's also lose song levels, Ranger's lose Improved Evasion and Paladin's lose Turning power.
Assassin and Blackguard would lose another another splash option to pick it - Assassins usually pick two of either monk, fighter, rogue, wm or bg - while BG pick fighter, wm, monk, paladin, HS (I think).
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Of the quoted ideas - I liked the 2013 ability buffs - making every active somewhat better.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 23, 2016 17:25:06 GMT
Another potential problem: the suggestion for +120 CA for 5 turns, 2 per rest. Means PDK toons have little reason to take CA, and to a lesser extent their partymates. All-or-nothing edits like this are typically way over the top. Sorry, I should have clarified: "stacking" bonus as in "above and beyond the usual bonuses", something like True Strike or Font of Vision, but for AC. CA was the first that came to mind, because it is not associated with any particular type (natural, deflection,...) and therefore does not conflict with Girding of the Faithful, Insurmountable Protection, or the like. It does not have anything to do with the presence or absence of Craft Armor in the build. If, as you say, giving PDKs a special items is the last resort and unlikely to happen, it could perhaps be baked Rallying Cry instead. P.S. Of course, with much shorter duration (counted in rounds, not turns) and smaller effect (+1 or +2 AC tops), to be on par with other abilities. |
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Put it on a cloak with something like 5x Epic Energy Resist II and/or Epic Damage Reduction III and you've got yourself a very much wearable item.
