Post by simpetar on Mar 24, 2016 12:41:33 GMT
This post in particular sparked an idea:
GIs, we are looking at a serious overhaul.
Why don't we focus this thread on xDDs first? Compare to similar class abilities, give rationale for change, and evaluate consequences of change.
Thanks,
Funky
Missile weapons (Shortbow, Longbow, Sling, Light Xbow and Heavy Xbow) are generally in a bad spot right now. Throwing weapons (Throwing Axe, Dart and Shuriken) as well, but there are some differences I will address later in this post. For simplicity sake, when I write "ranged weapon" here, it includes both missile and thrown.
I believe that fixing the current situation with new AA bows (stronger class item, previously marked as "last resort solution from different era"?) or making GI overhaul unless and until these weapons are generally useable, is building a house on sand, it will collapse on itself.
Historically, only AA bows were once competitive, when melee weapon buffs were not integrated and only few existed (no acid or cold or electric buffs). Then came the integration of weapon buffs (with additional damage dice, rather than flat amount), and 2h damage bonus. That was the first time AA bows and AAs got first big hit. Slingers and Zen ranger bows got their edits, but damage has never been their domain and definitely is not now. Sling and Xbow rogues were fun builds using ranged sneak attacks, cool concept, but never competitive in reality. The latest weapon update altering (and often improving) critical ranges and multipliers further weakened ranged weapons: their crits were intact.
Missile weapons have 4 issues:
1. They cannot be buffed with elemental or exotic types. Even AA bows are in comparison to melee weapons just as good (or rather just as bad) as UR weapons (pointed out in another thread).
2. Damage types from ammo boxes are set in stone. This is what contributed to failure of build attempts other than AA, slingers and Zen rangers.
3. They cannot be buffed with GMW. Rare, UR and Abyss ammo boxes have added damage, but that cannot bypass DR. The launcher AB bonus, unlike on melee weapons, does not help either. AAs are an exception to this, which comes from the class itself.
4. They have limited Mighty bonus. This is a minor issue; missile weapons are by default for dex builds and only a few toons can even reach the Mighty cap, but in the current situation every bit helps.
Throwing weapons share issue n.1 (the biggest one) and n.2 with missile weapons: lack of damage buffs and inflexibility. The other two are covered, throwing weapons have no cap on Mighty property and they can have enhancement of their own.
Suggested changes
1. Let ammo boxes / thrown weapon boxes drop from bosses who already drop weapons (DB, Dis, Min,...) with similar damage types as other weapons. If it is within the engine limits, these could be buffed, if not, "prebuff" of this ammo is in order. Example: "prebuffed" DB sling bullets would have 3x 5d12 elemental damage, 1x 3d12 exotic damage, 2x 2d12 exotic damage (one dice less than real casters and it is reasonable to expect that in a real party there is 1 person who can dish out an exotic buff).
1.1. Let classes that can toggle between damage types do it, but on class basis, not item basis. If there was requirement to use certain damage type, keep it that way. Example: AAs can use their Legendary Bow as soon as they find it, with any kind of unlimited ammo (box) they wish. Once they defeat DB and merge one of the bow, they can use that bow's added damage. This would be similar to how staffmaster's weapons and Blackstaff work.
2. Allow these ammo boxes to be crafted with respective damage gems.
3. Tbh, no idea how to solve missiles not bypassing DR
4. Ranged weapons deserve better crit ranges and multipliers, in the light of the recent update.
Possible build and mod impact
1. AAs will be competitive once again. Damage dealing was "their thing", now they are the bottom lurkers, not played. If somebody brings an AA, they get invited only if they offer other sort of utility, rogue duties or arcane epics / PSK.
2. Zen Rangers and slingers will move from niche / extra / fun build towards class capable of dealing some damage.
3. Ground for GI overhaul will open, no more "building house on sand" thing I mentioned earlier.
4. Other build options may become viable:
4.1. Strength builds (using Throwing Axes or Darts) will need to invest at least 2 feats (Brutal Throw, Point Blank Shot), preferably Rapid Shot too. In return they get the option of dealing damage from afar. Note that this is a posibility; melee monsters can and will come to smack them. Being ranged capable gives the character a tool for dealing with caster / archer types without spawning more while running to them.
4.2. Dex melee builds usually already have a ranged weapon on switch, usually for breaking objects that need to be broken. It is not like they can deal much damage anyways and even less so with a ranged weapon. They will need to invest at least Point Blank Shot and preferably Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload to be efficient.
AAs are getting new bows, which will address the damage issue. My remarks about tanks getting damage boosting through gear apply even moreso here.
GIs, we are looking at a serious overhaul.
Why don't we focus this thread on xDDs first? Compare to similar class abilities, give rationale for change, and evaluate consequences of change.
Thanks,
Funky
Missile weapons (Shortbow, Longbow, Sling, Light Xbow and Heavy Xbow) are generally in a bad spot right now. Throwing weapons (Throwing Axe, Dart and Shuriken) as well, but there are some differences I will address later in this post. For simplicity sake, when I write "ranged weapon" here, it includes both missile and thrown.
I believe that fixing the current situation with new AA bows (stronger class item, previously marked as "last resort solution from different era"?) or making GI overhaul unless and until these weapons are generally useable, is building a house on sand, it will collapse on itself.
Historically, only AA bows were once competitive, when melee weapon buffs were not integrated and only few existed (no acid or cold or electric buffs). Then came the integration of weapon buffs (with additional damage dice, rather than flat amount), and 2h damage bonus. That was the first time AA bows and AAs got first big hit. Slingers and Zen ranger bows got their edits, but damage has never been their domain and definitely is not now. Sling and Xbow rogues were fun builds using ranged sneak attacks, cool concept, but never competitive in reality. The latest weapon update altering (and often improving) critical ranges and multipliers further weakened ranged weapons: their crits were intact.
Missile weapons have 4 issues:
1. They cannot be buffed with elemental or exotic types. Even AA bows are in comparison to melee weapons just as good (or rather just as bad) as UR weapons (pointed out in another thread).
2. Damage types from ammo boxes are set in stone. This is what contributed to failure of build attempts other than AA, slingers and Zen rangers.
3. They cannot be buffed with GMW. Rare, UR and Abyss ammo boxes have added damage, but that cannot bypass DR. The launcher AB bonus, unlike on melee weapons, does not help either. AAs are an exception to this, which comes from the class itself.
4. They have limited Mighty bonus. This is a minor issue; missile weapons are by default for dex builds and only a few toons can even reach the Mighty cap, but in the current situation every bit helps.
Throwing weapons share issue n.1 (the biggest one) and n.2 with missile weapons: lack of damage buffs and inflexibility. The other two are covered, throwing weapons have no cap on Mighty property and they can have enhancement of their own.
Suggested changes
1. Let ammo boxes / thrown weapon boxes drop from bosses who already drop weapons (DB, Dis, Min,...) with similar damage types as other weapons. If it is within the engine limits, these could be buffed, if not, "prebuff" of this ammo is in order. Example: "prebuffed" DB sling bullets would have 3x 5d12 elemental damage, 1x 3d12 exotic damage, 2x 2d12 exotic damage (one dice less than real casters and it is reasonable to expect that in a real party there is 1 person who can dish out an exotic buff).
1.1. Let classes that can toggle between damage types do it, but on class basis, not item basis. If there was requirement to use certain damage type, keep it that way. Example: AAs can use their Legendary Bow as soon as they find it, with any kind of unlimited ammo (box) they wish. Once they defeat DB and merge one of the bow, they can use that bow's added damage. This would be similar to how staffmaster's weapons and Blackstaff work.
2. Allow these ammo boxes to be crafted with respective damage gems.
3. Tbh, no idea how to solve missiles not bypassing DR
4. Ranged weapons deserve better crit ranges and multipliers, in the light of the recent update.
Possible build and mod impact
1. AAs will be competitive once again. Damage dealing was "their thing", now they are the bottom lurkers, not played. If somebody brings an AA, they get invited only if they offer other sort of utility, rogue duties or arcane epics / PSK.
2. Zen Rangers and slingers will move from niche / extra / fun build towards class capable of dealing some damage.
3. Ground for GI overhaul will open, no more "building house on sand" thing I mentioned earlier.
4. Other build options may become viable:
4.1. Strength builds (using Throwing Axes or Darts) will need to invest at least 2 feats (Brutal Throw, Point Blank Shot), preferably Rapid Shot too. In return they get the option of dealing damage from afar. Note that this is a posibility; melee monsters can and will come to smack them. Being ranged capable gives the character a tool for dealing with caster / archer types without spawning more while running to them.
4.2. Dex melee builds usually already have a ranged weapon on switch, usually for breaking objects that need to be broken. It is not like they can deal much damage anyways and even less so with a ranged weapon. They will need to invest at least Point Blank Shot and preferably Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload to be efficient.