Post by MurphysLawAgain on Apr 25, 2016 6:20:54 GMT
After an entertaining chat with a number of players yesterday I have been thinking about arcane archers. At the moment they seem to lack value, since they hand out low damage and have relatively few abilities to help the party in endgame areas.I have a few thoughts about ways to change that.
One option would be to introduce a set of additional items that could be incorporated into their bows (e.g. abyss fletching). These would provide either more primary damage or add a second damage type. Buffing primary damage by a few extra dice would definitely help, or if they could add 2d12 Internal or Poison damage that would be a noticeable improvement. It would continue to reward knowledge of the targets vulnerabilities but would reflect the additional damage output gained by the buff spells and new weapon types.
Another might be to allow the imbue and hail arrows to trigger less or no KB. In areas where many spawns contain party KB mobs, these abilities are more of a suicide pact than anything else.
Reworking hail of arrows (or coding a new !opt ) so that it did no damage but dropped physical resists / immune for d6 rounds would also add utility to the class.
Just an addendum, another minor but real issue for AA's is that every one of the endgame bows does magical and negative damage. Faced with superiors and elites who may heal off these damage types this leaves them even fewer options. Could we add an Solar Bow which has a main damage type with added positive and divine?
Post by MurphysLawAgain on Apr 25, 2016 7:13:29 GMT
I have moved this text to the original post and am using this post to collate suggestions ...
Base damage Improve base damage of the bows BY 15% - either adding physical or some other type (Internal / Poison / Other). This could be done using an upgrade item (e.g. abyss fletching). Add a bow to reduce the automatic "magic & neg" output (e.g.g Solar Bow doing Div and Pos) Add a bow to do pure physical damage Convert magic / neg on the base bows to do extra pierce Pure AA bypasses pierce damage reduction / resist Scale bow damage to 20d8 (18d8 for exos) and have a single exotic of varied type for 5d12. This might need to be higher....(28d8?) Inflict ele / exo vulns on a per hit basis Have AA's reduce crit immunity on mobs (maybe not bosses)
Imbue Trigger less KB Add some sort of vulnerability
Fire - additional save vs. Blindness
Cold - additional save vs. Paralysis
Acid - additional save vs. Slow
Electric - additional save vs. Daze
Sonic - additional save vs. Silence
Hail of Arrows Trigger less / no KB Replace damage with a drop to phys resists / immune for a small number of rounds Raise base damage by 15% Firebrand like mechanic Add bigby / kd / mindfog / slow effect Add Mass rez / Heal / Miracle effect Add an AB drop
Death Arrow Cool down is too long - reduce to 2 mins or more frequent? Change to a Mord effect?
Add Penetrating Arrow Hits targets in a line Inflicts an effect from the Other list
Seeker Arrow Raise base damage Removes crit immune
Other Reduce AC effect? Ranged disarm Ranged KD Mord Arrows Some sort of swift action
Nice ideas, I like the solar bow and the hail of arrows one especially.
Right now the only option to avoid healing is to switch to an exotic only damage. While this is a nice specialty you do at the same time even less damage.
I would like to see the death arrow changed as well. 4 minutes of cool-down is just too long to make a real use of it. Half that time like greater smiting or even once per minute would make it a reliabel once per one to two spawns useable ability at least and add a chance to do something besides bashing on mobs helping the group. This would still avoid the spamming of it and DC 60 in hells and abyss is really all but high.
Would it not be easier rather than adding a new bow to make the magic and negative into extra piercing for all the bows which would mean that they would deal only one type of elemental or exotic and physical, making AAs the masters of specific damage with no chance of healing if using the correct bow?
AA is definitely lackluster in the damage department. It permeates all the abilities as well. Hail, seeker and imbue do pathetic amounts of damage and never seem to be worth using over standard attacks. I personally feel like AA needs about a 15-20% boost to be upper middle of the pack when it comes to output. Alternatively I love the thought of giving them utility. I like the idea of vulnerability, and I really like Elg's mord thought. Maybe combined with a forceful arrow a niche for AA would be ranged caster disabler? Will ponder a bit.
<as funny as my old sig was, it was a bit obnoxious. Placeholder>
1. Breach/Mord/DOM arrow 2. pure AA bypasses pierce damage resistance/reduction 3. Hail of Arrows can hit the same target multiple times (reduced damage per hit a la firebrand) 4. Penetrating arrow - hit all targets in a line 5. An AA should be able to riddle plate armor full of holes -- maybe some kind of slag or AC reduction effect? Not sure how it will work for mobs that, technically, don't wear armor. 6. Toggle Hail of Arrows effect -- damage all targets, Bigby all targets, kd all targets, Mass heal/rez/miracle, mind fog 7. Seeker Arrow removes crit immunity (Zen Ranger can just target the hand!) 8. Bump up their damages (boring but effective)
The more I think about it, the more I think just a bump in damage isn't really the way to go. I'm a big fan of utility and interaction, and I think with the base abilities an AA has there's a cool opportunity here. I think a small dice bump (maybe) for AA damage, possibly a physical one, and then increased damage through abilities. If infliction is on the menu and you want to keep ele on the CC wiz side, give AA CC phys inflict. I'd like to see something done with hail of arrows, if not a damage bump then some of the previous ideas. Possibly make some of the AA base abilities swift actions?
AA desperately needs some utility. Ranged disarm or KD? Mord would be sexy, or allow the mord arrows to work? I tried for utility on an offensive AA with vanilla called shot and it was mediocre at best. Maybe give them a modified version that affects multiple stats?
<as funny as my old sig was, it was a bit obnoxious. Placeholder>
When I suggested 15% damage I was speaking of AA overall damage output, not abilities specifically. Unless AA's suddenly get a lore boost and damage is more than doubled imbue etc are pitiful damage wise. I would vastly prefer that landing an ability would increase bow damage by x amount.
Vitiating arrow could lower pierce imm by a % determined by AA level or level + x feat.
Dispersion arrow could be something that mords
Razing shot some kind of ranged KD
Not sure what to do about hail of arrows. I like the thought of lowering phys resists for a short time, or perhaps adding some sort of monster hampering effect. Slow? Stacking AB drop?
Edit: Should any AA abilities be swift actions? A major form of utility for any tank or damage dealer is something to use alongside attacks or ability casts. Taunt, persuade, disarm or KD are prime examples of meaningful swift actions. I'm not sure what should be what but thought i'd mention this as AA doesnt really have access to any.
Edit 2 Maybe a primarily phys damage arrow? Seems odd that AA has all these elements and exotics but cant shoot a physical one.
Post by MurphysLawAgain on Apr 26, 2016 15:09:43 GMT
As a group can we get some log data on AA's to see where the damage is / should be? While its "common knowledge" that their damage sucks getting empirical data would help. My gut says Bazukars 15% might be low - but if the AA got additional useful abilities then it might be right.
Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 26, 2016 23:07:35 GMT
The dice for AA damage are simply too low. If you're putting a fire bow against a buffed Pit of Moliation weapon, you're going to do less damage, 10.5 less on average. If you get a Farseer ego, you're going to do 4.5 more than a buffed Pit of Moliation weapon, but that's still pretty lame. It would be nice if the dice were adjusted significantly so that AAs no longer pale in comparison to the introduction of integrated weapon buffs and bonus two-handed damage (note: I don't think they should have more damage than 2H necessarily, but they should have more damage than your average one-hander).
In terms of physical damage AAs aren't really too badly off, since they get +15 from class bonus, +16 from Mighty (though that requires a modest investment), +20 from Weapon Specialization (if fighter splash), etc. The thing that kills them is that they're no longer the best at their intended purpose: high packet single target elemental/exotic damage. I would suggest having their damage scale to 20d8 (18d8 for exos) rather than 15d8 (13d8 for exos), a net increase of 22.5 damage on average. Additionally, it would be nice if instead of magic/negative on the elemental bows, they received only a single exotic of varying types but at a 5d12 (to be on par with a single buffed exotic on a weapon).
From there, you can start getting into tweaking other class abilities to improve their usefulness but I think bow damage dice is the best place to start.
Various toons, needing various tags -- mostly lolfail tanks, some cores.