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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 0:10:40 GMT
Can't AAs still use disarm/KD if they're in range? Not saying it's ideal but I think they *can*.
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Post by bazukar on Apr 27, 2016 5:26:45 GMT
Possibly? You have to be reeeeeaaallly close and if you took weapon spec your ac is 128ish on a good day. I had forgotten about slingers ranged KD so perhaps a disarm for AA?
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Post by simpetar on Apr 27, 2016 6:25:41 GMT
The dice for AA damage are simply too low. If you're putting a fire bow against a buffed Pit of Moliation weapon, you're going to do less damage, 10.5 less on average. If you get a Farseer ego, you're going to do 4.5 more than a buffed Pit of Moliation weapon, but that's still pretty lame. This. In terms of physical damage AAs aren't really too badly off, since they get +15 from class bonus, +16 from Mighty (though that requires a modest investment), +20 from Weapon Specialization (if fighter splash), etc. The thing that kills them is that they're no longer the best at their intended purpose: high packet single target elemental/exotic damage. I would suggest having their damage scale to 20d8 (18d8 for exos) rather than 15d8 (13d8 for exos), a net increase of 22.5 damage on average. Additionally, it would be nice if instead of magic/negative on the elemental bows, they received only a single exotic of varying types but at a 5d12 (to be on par with a single buffed exotic on a weapon). From there, you can start getting into tweaking other class abilities to improve their usefulness but I think bow damage dice is the best place to start. DB weapon has 3x6d12 elemental and 3x2d12 exotic. Without physical bonuses and not counting resistance/immunity, at (basic) 5 attacks a round this averages at 780 damage per round. Elemental bow has 15d8 elemental and 2x2d12 exotic. Without physical bonus and not counting resistance/immunity, at 6 attacks a round this averaged at 561 damage per round. In order to be at least on par with DB weapons, elemental bow would need 29d8 elemental damage. As has been shown in the discussion about XR weapons, well crafted weapon with multiple types is more efficient than several mega damage weapons, when counting in resistance and immunity, unless resistance is very high (30/- and above). Bows could also use a tweak to their crit range: 20/x3 seems little underwheling for a martial weapon. Keen is reserved only for pure AAs, but that is not a great problem (as an incentive). I will use this as a shameless bump of my previous thread: It would be nice to see a craftable and buffable/"pre-buffed" quivers (or ammo boxes) from the relevant weapon dropping bosses. AAs could then keep their single damage increase, in a similar way staffmasters do. That would help not only AAs but other ranged weapon users as well. Do arcane archers have any options for a useful swift action? No.
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Post by tomaan on Apr 27, 2016 16:30:49 GMT
AA should be the server's glass cannon. With no defensive buffs and low AC, it already has the "glass" part....we just need to figure out the "cannon".
I'm all for bumping damage, but the bump needs to be significant enough make AA top3 damage on the server. It will be balanced by back spawns, which will force the AA to take cover/re-position before attacking.
Maybe there's a way code a "power-up" damage progression, where damage increases over time and the progression resets when the AA switches targets or gets hit/takes kb? In other words, if the AA has time to focus on a single target, she/he can obliterate it. If the AA gets interrupted or switches targets, he/she has to re-focus once again.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 27, 2016 17:42:39 GMT
Increasing vulnerability to the arrow elemental/exotic damage type on a per hit basis?
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Apr 27, 2016 17:55:22 GMT
I don't know if this is possible but could the AA keep exactly the same damage but bypass crit immunity? With a bow tweak to say base 19-20 x3 (and possibly keen on top) they would remain poor against weaker mobs but would do a fair bit better against the tougher mobs. It might not work on bosses. This would give them a fairly unique role without bumping raw damage output.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 18:43:54 GMT
Bypassing crit immunity reaches into the area of "absurdly overpowered." Even without extra dice getting to deal 60d8 (270 on average; 330 on average with Farseer) cold damage on a crit to PFs (or other similar crit-immune nasties) is crazy strong.
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Post by simpetar on Apr 27, 2016 19:18:25 GMT
Bypassing crit immunity reaches into the area of "absurdly overpowered." Even without extra dice getting to deal 60d8 (270 on average; 330 on average with Farseer) cold damage on a crit to PFs (or other similar crit-immune nasties) is crazy strong. 60d8 cold damage 6 times a round (not that six consecutive crits in a round are very likely to happen) is equal to 2 lore boosted Polar Rays in one round, each hitting 3 PFs (easy to do). So much for "absurdly overpowered". But other than that, yeah, ignoring crit immunity is probably not the way to go.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 19:53:05 GMT
Sure, but your arrows also don't respect spell resistance and don't have a reflex save for half. Yes, "absurdly overpowered" was probably a bit too... hyperbolic. But I can almost guarantee ignoring crit immunity will never happen (for any class).
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Post by simpetar on Apr 27, 2016 20:15:15 GMT
Sure, but your arrows also don't respect spell resistance and don't have a reflex save for half. Yep, and arrows need to bypass monster AC and concealment instead. As for the half damage on failed reflex, it is discussing the glass being half full or half empty, because arrows get nothing of that sort. Luckily we do not have to worry about any class ignoring crit immunity (although it would be a nice addition to assassins and rangers ), because many mobs have only crit reduction. At least outside hells - even some run bosses have mere crit reduction instead of full immunity. But this is where bows with only 20/x3 base are disadvantaged.
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Post by tomaan on Apr 27, 2016 20:55:49 GMT
Monks can strip crit immunity in certain situations, so it's not entirely without precedent. I agree it's not the way to go but no harm in throwing out crazy ideas, like a "Hawkeye" style quiver that has a range of specialized arrows, many of which already have nwn/hg equivalents: marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Trick_Arrows
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 20:59:34 GMT
Yeah, I agree that 19-20/x3 would be a nice adjustment, especially in light of other weapon edits. Other than that the things I'd like to see are: greatly increased bow dice (as I previously suggested), ranged Disarm (I think this is a solid suggestion and would add some nice utility, without stepping the toes of other classes), increased DC for Arrow of Death (for both options; as well as a greatly reduced timer for the AoE), increased damage and DC for Imbue (maybe increase to d10 rather than d6 - roughly 100 more damage if pure, with a DC of either 10 or 15 + AA level), and increased base damage for Hail and Seeker Arrow (perhaps something like AA level incl. LLs for base damage instead of the +15).
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 21:00:33 GMT
Monks can strip crit immunity in certain situations, so it's not entirely without precedent. Once per day, against a single enemy, on a successful save. That's a lot different from ignoring crit immunity entirely.
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Post by elgrathforestwalke on Apr 27, 2016 21:23:42 GMT
What about Imbue arrow with a silence effect on a failed save target is silenced for a number of rounds?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 27, 2016 22:28:03 GMT
I think just silence is a bit too... simple? Even though it would be really cool. What about something like:
Fire - additional save vs. Blindness Cold - additional save vs. Paralysis Acid - additional save vs. Slow Electric - additional save vs. Daze Sonic - additional save vs. Silence
Is just a thought of course. But if there were secondary saving throw effects for imbue, I just think they would need to be different based on what element is active.
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