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Post by moe on Sept 6, 2016 4:48:05 GMT
NOT that I have a comment about Limbo (the only one I know is the one I went to from Hell runs - back in the day) OR that I have any valuable insight into the actual topic of this thread
I just want to remind people that not everyone who plays here plays for the endgame. I am retired, seldom leave my house, and I'm on my computer a LOT. I have the TIME - just not the interest. And it's not that I don't have Lvl 60 gear or lack subraces (I have well over a billion in the bank collecting dust) I even recall having good times on LL and Hell runs - with friends. I even started going on a couple desert/db runs. For ME, it's the party that makes or breaks a run.
Used to be "nubs" and "elites" both played together. It wasn't so much about what the run was, but rather who was going. You met those people playing the lower 40 and followed them into Legendary Levels. What i find now is that it is sometimes hard to catch a party going thru the lower 40 - everyone "speedrunning immortality". Hell, the other day I took my lvl 23 to the fields to see if they could survive there. I found a lvl 12 working the fields! Really?
Remember/realize that SOME of the players here will NEVER care about Limbo. Realize that any new player here (and I HAVE seen them) has to make it thru the lower 40 more than once to make it on this server. It will be MANY MANY hours of running the lower 40, collecting gear, collecting knowledge, getting a decent subrace for their primary toon, etc. And that's just to get thru the basic Legendary runs.
What keeps a player here is NOT the carrot on the end of the stick (Limbo). It is whether they have enjoyed the years it took them playing to get that far (on a game that is already 14 years old) Sometimes life drags us away fpr one reason or another (as Real Life SHOULD) It is nice to come back to a place that is familiar. Where you "know people". Where you "know how to play the game" - even if you can't remember it all right now. It's a great way to kill time and control the "online experience" (by NOT playing with general jerks and asswipes) but I really don't want to be tied to my computer for the next 3 hours for a CHANCE to get a piece of gear I can MAYBE use on my NEXT 3 hour run. Just not my thing.
You can go back to your regular programming now. . .
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Post by cathedralmaster on Sept 10, 2016 6:20:23 GMT
The population dropped, and to think that you will get some of it back by opening ever harder areas to tempt back long lost players is a pipe dream. Nostalgia is great, but you cannot go back in time, nor can you tempt most old players back for long. Something we have seen very clearly. Yes, for a very brief time some old players did come back to try things out, and then poof were gone just as quickly as they came. You see people move on, and those old players had a reason for leaving. Reasons that keep them away now. You can't change those things. They can’t go back in time, and neither can all of you. The server is caught in a bit of a time warp, with most of you living in the past, and unable to move on, adapt, or change. That is mostly why the server is close to death. Neverwinter Nights is from a bygone era; before World of Warcraft changed the MMORPG market by tidal shifts; before the advent and integration of social media; before the rise of mobile apps. In that context, Limbo was bound to fail to attract anyone. More content for the community does nothing to deal with the fundamental problems that are causing this community to dwindle. It's not even a new coat of paint. It's why debating the philosophy of secrets, the needed cores issues, and most of the other issues HG players concern themselves with will never come to much of anything. But what else can they do but rearrange the deck chairs?
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Post by somes on Sept 10, 2016 12:59:59 GMT
Neverwinter Nights is from a bygone era; before World of Warcraft changed the MMORPG market by tidal shifts; before the advent and integration of social media; before the rise of mobile apps. In that context, Limbo was bound to fail to attract anyone. More content for the community does nothing to deal with the fundamental problems that are causing this community to dwindle. It's not even a new coat of paint. It's why debating the philosophy of secrets, the needed cores issues, and most of the other issues HG players concern themselves with will never come to much of anything. But what else can they do but rearrange the deck chairs? Exactly. I don't mind the needed cores of the server as me and Bale discussed, but HG does need a change in philosophy if it wants to continue on. HG doesn't have to die, there's a huge market for retro games, and there's always donations/kickstarters/patreons to get the developers paid for the game. If we want to be fair, it is the first barrier the game is having. I'm not familiar with the technicalities of the donations, or past purchases to help out the developers, but the constant counter post from the devs on the lines of "I'm working on Higher Ground during my own free time you know?" shows that something needs to change in that front. The needed cores aspect is similar to the concept of the holy trinity of most MMOs (Tank, Healer, DPS), and it is a way to get people to create more characters and put more forethought into their builds, making players be more immersed into the game in general, and most importantly a way to improve. The problem with needed cores is that it is restricted to few classes in the mod, while the trinity in other MMOs will fit a lot more classes, and sometimes even all. A lot of the appeal of Higher Ground is that there a lot of classes and build combinations you can play with, but the end game content punishes you for wanting to explore builds, not for your actual skill in the game. I am strongly against making the end game area runs easier, and I would rather have all the classes and quasiclasses the devs have put their time into creating and changing be able to fulfill some sort of aspect that the cores can do, and leave the cores to still be the best at fulfilling them. I don't mind personally creating a new character and learning a class to explore end game content, but it has to be said that the philosophy of quasiclasses and multiclassing completely contradicts the philosophy the end game runs are pushing. Hell, if min/maxing is the end all and be all of the end game content and we have to take Bale's words as the law of the server, why not just ban most of the classes and prestige classes, delete the quasiclasses and only allow Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Shifters, and Paladins in the server? Only 6 playable classes from now on. I think the next step if we want to see Higher Ground continue on is actually helping out the developers if we are not already (then again, I admit complete ignorance on HG's donation structure, but I know very well that unpaid developers, or exploiting interns results often times in unfinished/bad/slow to change games), taking a serious look at the classes, fit in creative ways that the classes outside of the cores can fulfill some of the tasks cores can do while leaving the cores to be still the best at doing so. I can be wrong of course, I'm just throwing things out there to see what sticks. Sorry if this post is poorly written, I wrote this when I woke up lol.
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Post by chirality on Sept 10, 2016 13:49:24 GMT
The problem with needed cores is that it is restricted to few classes in the mod, while the trinity in other MMOs will fit a lot more classes, and sometimes even all. Problem? Is it? Most MMOs have about as many classes as HG's so-called "cores" and their stand-ins: sorceror, wizard, theurge, bard+chanter is 5 already, shifter makes 6, then there's cleric, druid, and their quasis (SL, div theurge, slinger for example), and it's been demonstrated time and again that any given L60 endgame run is doable with only a few toons. the end game content punishes you for wanting to explore builds, not for your actual skill in the game. Rather the opposite, but actual skill is something that's always been in high demand and the playerbase has been found sorely wanting in this department more and more with each passing year. it has to be said that the philosophy of quasiclasses and multiclassing completely contradicts the philosophy the end game runs are pushing. Does it? Or is it just that people can't figure out a way to create a happy marriage between playing non-ABCD toons and skill succeeding in endgame? Hell, if min/maxing is the end all and be all of the end game content and we have to take Bale's words as the law of the server What :*( Not seeing how min/maxing (or my words, whichever the ones in question were) lead to this next part: why not just ban most of the classes and prestige classes, delete the quasiclasses and only allow Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Shifters, and Paladins in the server? Only 6 playable classes from now on. On the one hand, you skipped enough classes that the final number of un-deleted classes would still be around double what most MMOs offer; hats off to HG On the other hand, maybe WoW players are intimidated by the fact that different classes are in fact actually different (as opposed to clones with different flavor) and intimidated by the fact that there is indeed a lot more complexity required for HG endgame than "tank tanks, healer heals, DPS damages". As you mentioned above, the structure is basically the same, but it's just more expansive and more inclusive, despite people like me telling nubs who can't get their sht together to only play 6 classes. Dunno why you'd prefer options to be removed when it's the "appeal" that sets the game apart from WoW? I'm sorry if people can't figure out a way to make their desire to succeed and enjoy the game work properly with their desire to play things other than Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Shifters, and Paladins, but that's a poor excuse to validate simplicity and paucity of build choice. The system isn't broken; players (and their lack of actual skill) are broken. I think you're mistaken in your judgment of how, when, and why prestige classes and quasiclasses shall be used properly, and by whom. I'm guessing that this was more of a joke than to be taken literally, but you should keep in mind the subtle difference between telling new player "make ABCD not XYZQ" and having the options exist for a player with "actual skill" to build and win with XYZQ. C'mon, don't equate things that shouldn't be equated; it's just not fair to the game or the system, and blaming too many options for people making bad decisions is sad. Again, I know you're no meaning this literally, but it's nonetheless a weak logic train.
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 10, 2016 14:06:36 GMT
Neverwinter Nights is from a bygone era; before World of Warcraft changed the MMORPG market by tidal shifts; before the advent and integration of social media; before the rise of mobile apps. In that context, Limbo was bound to fail to attract anyone. More content for the community does nothing to deal with the fundamental problems that are causing this community to dwindle. It's not even a new coat of paint. It's why debating the philosophy of secrets, the needed cores issues, and most of the other issues HG players concern themselves with will never come to much of anything. But what else can they do but rearrange the deck chairs? I have to disagree here. Poll people about what they want in MMO games and HG actually has most of what they want, complex gameplay, radically different classes, and most important free to play. It is indeed an old game, but there are still text only MUDs out there with lots of players and lots of super crappy flash games that attract players. It won't be as popular as WoW purely because of marketing and the "pretty" factor. But as a core game, HG is great and limbo is fascinating if somewhat problematic. It's still worth fixing. -S
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Post by somes on Sept 10, 2016 17:32:31 GMT
Problem? Is it? Most MMOs have about as many classes as HG's so-called "cores" and their stand-ins: sorceror, wizard, theurge, bard+chanter is 5 already, shifter makes 6, then there's cleric, druid, and their quasis (SL, div theurge, slinger for example), and it's been demonstrated time and again that any given L60 endgame run is doable with only a few toons. This is why I keep thinking you are not understanding what I'm saying, or you are only responding for the sake of responding, and it shows later on in your post. It's not about how many players can do them, I'm pointing out that these toons have to be built a certain way with a few amount of classes. You say it is the opposite... but don't explain why. What's so bad about the devs creating more classes that can fulfill core duties, and have a run go smoothly and fast with no cores in the party. Why does it have to be this way? This is where I know for sure you are not taking the time to understand my post. It was a hyperbole for your position, sarcasm. If we were to take your game philosophy to the extreme, we should just delete all the classes and quasiclasses, just have Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Shifters, and Paladins, and delete everything else.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 10, 2016 19:59:52 GMT
Short version:
Long version: Player population and the early game to end game distance The last player insurgence was the Paragon levels. Interestingly enough it didn't cause Abyss run to become commonplace (but I think it increased their frequency). People were excited to farm to see the new stuff their characters could do - maybe the novelty that excited then. More options, new abilities.
Now those players are distanced from the newer players (there is a massive 1-60 game they don't take part in, without trivializing it) and they can't step out of their current stronger toons because the power discrepancy is so massive and there's no significant reason to party up (because such areas can't offer relevant loot). The newer content seem a bit too "grindy" (it seems the required canopic farm for a random XUR is akin to completing a hell cycle - 10 runs) or require proper very high power toons (for instance abyss feels prone to failure without at least demix3 or drags on due stats/dc).
Incidentally I liked here a lot when it was limited to level 60 (tough I never liked demigodhood bonuses). It felt good when we "finished" the character when it got to 60, then all we needed to do was take on the challenges of hells and beyond. Although I really dislike the whole hell/abyss cycle bonuses concept (and unlockable subraces). Ironically I like most paragon spells (they created some interesting character choices).
What I think might be related to that: Personally I find runs too long, the end game runs being the prime example. I'd prefer if the runs were balanced around at most 2 rests - about 45 minutes-ish. Incidently 1-40 has numerous small "runs".
The run order restriction restriction for hell/abyss is a pain. LL levels feels somewhat more fun because you have options (mostly in theory - LL ab/ac/gear progression puts some restrictions). After the first time (tag) you are free, you could repeat dachy if you are a threader or thids if you are a pm. Hells on the other hand (even if very well designed with it's "randomness" and scaling for an ever changing experience) forces you to repeat all runs in strict order. (I'm saying that repeating hell cycles for bonuses don't feel fun, but knowig you should do that to make your experience in abyss more enjoyable is a chore)
Demigodhood requirements/bonuses and those massive tag quests are a massive turn down on going for making new characters aimed at hells and beyond (layer penalty is a huge power factor, as are the demigod stat bonuses). I like how Elysium and Aboleth is hard without resorting to that.
All in all I'd say there's too much room in both build plan, gear quality and time based progression (i.e. levels, tag, cycle bonuses) and personal skill too make people starting on the server interact with people on the end. Those people are on different servers altogether.
Other game comparisons HG is a great server although it's parts are a bit discrepant. We have about 33 classes (most with at least 2 good distinct builds) but to experience a character until first hell cycle we have to put over 30 hours on it (probably more) and after that you can spend another good 40+ hours on hell to become demix5, a similar 15 hours to complete an abyss cycle. Unfortunately although there are this massive number of classes, the later runs need a specific composition.
Never having played WoW. I can only speak on GW 1 and Ragnarok online terms. GW have flexibility in character tweaking. So you can modify and improve your build to better fit a run (or have more self synergy) however it has way bigger building blocks than HG - although selecting 7 regular skills and 1 elite skill does provide quite a handful variation given it's 600 skill pool. It felt way more dinamic to play around builds, although min-maxing limited a bit the options, it felt you could try stuff. Altough it had 10 class (4 are from expansions) it was really varied and everyone of those were viable. In fact, as the popularity diminished, we could build bots from any class to fill a one man party (and 7 bots - party size was 8). The game difficulty progression felt good because getting numbers was set aside for getting options. What I mean is, each character maxed level (and gear) sort of early, but enemies didn't (and got more powerful in different ways), however you needed to make more efficient builds (explore/exploit synergies) and earn some extra skills along the way.
R.O. is a primitive mmorpg, it had a stat system akin to nwn and a skill system akin to our feat system (although less focused on numbers - most 3rd edition feats are just bonus to numbers - epic/paragon spells are really refreshing to 3rd edition lack of flashy effects). What kept the game exiting was the guild wars (lol) - called War of Emperium. End game pve content was based around going into areas with strong foes (some of which could skip) and hunting the big bosses (damage sponges, usually deadly) and the elusive loot (that game had abysmal drops). Character building had at least as many traps as we have here.
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