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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 20:38:51 GMT
Would it be more effective/faster exploring and leveling to go with something like battle cleric for 40 levels and gather gold and gear and start a new character more endgame focused? I think in theory a Battle Cleric could be a bit smoother for the early tags (eg: 1-25), but after that the caster one catches up and at 30+ melee-based builds will find dealing damage very hard. I leveled up my caster Cleric in 'Battle Cleric style' for Levels 1-20 and with all your buffs (notably Divine power + weapon buffs) you can shred through the early tags. Most enemies in the 1-20 area are flimsy and will get one-shotted by you anyway. Once you get Animal Empathy (you can just take it at Level 9 instead of Level 10) you can dominate the Oltum for very fast/easy leveling as well - ask in game about this! So short answer is that it could be a little more effective, but personally I don't think it makes a difference either way - the 6 STR version will generally be able to do the job well enough. Note that at such a low level, the only difference between a 'true Battle Cleric' and a 'caster Cleric playing like a Battle Cleric' is lower STR, which primarily influences AB (some damage too, but it's not a large difference) - and most enemies don't have high AC.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 20:43:12 GMT
As for the extended discussion over which class is best, I think it's all gotten a bit silly. It's like arguing over which food is the healthiest one - "X has the most nutrients per gram, but Y is the least expensive so you can buy more, but Z tastes nicer so it's easier to eat more, but..." and so on. In NWN this sort of discussion has no hard facts, just opinions, and it's the sort of thing that can go in circles forever. I already posted my opinion at the top (dante2377 had already made a Cleric so this 'debate' was mostly moot). I *could* sit here and write a 3-page essay about exactly why my opinion is what it is, but that would be a criminal waste of my time. The healthy food sample answer of "eating any of them is much better than eating junk food" is appropriate here; it doesn't *really* matter which core you pick, any ABCD class is miles ahead of any non-ABCD class when it comes to usefulness in a run. In terms of a class being limited by its relative difficulty (ie: Druid being less newbie-friendly), the effects of this certainly vary from player to player. A talented player will have no issues learning any core, while a very inept player will probably struggle to make a significant impact no matter what they play. Some minor notes: *As mentioned in my first post, I posted an Open-Subrace Druid build last week which does indeed fit in Empower Spell. *Primary nerfs to Druid were to Fissure/Reverse Gravity and Poison (in Hell), but none of those spells are critical for the 1-60 journey.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 8, 2016 21:08:21 GMT
A talented player will have no issues learning any core, while a very inept player will probably struggle to make a significant impact no matter what they play. Poli, I dub Thee the Master of Pep Talk
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Post by chirality on Sept 9, 2016 3:46:50 GMT
Bale keep in mind that you are advising a brand new player with 0 rings, and 0 readily available gear in general once you hit certain level/tag threshold. Druids have easier times thanks to shunt, innately high AC as well as some semi decent meatshields early on (the bird). The game does not "start" at lvl 60, neither at lvl 40. For a newcomer it indeed starts the moment they set foot in the docks at lvl 1, and druids who can equip just about anything that drops form anywhere (up to medium armor and shield), with decent mix of available cc, instakills and damage and few other perks have the edge. Arcanes (sorcs) are unrivaled powerhouses, but druids are easier to start with and discover the server. Nuff said. Of course those things were kept in mind; it's par for the course when recommending anything for a new player. I see a second reference to L60, and a mention of "threshold" similar to what deso posted. Perhaps the limbo thread is to blame; it looks like you think there was something in my post or suggestions that's involved with, dependent upon, or central to higher-levels. This is not the case, and I believe that nothing I posted indicated in any way that I wasn't considering L1+. In fact, I don't consider L60 or PLs to be worth discussing for a new player since, as I alluded to earlier, by the time a player is L60 they likely have amassed enough knowledge and wealth to no longer be an open sub zero gear player. I disagree that a shunt makes playing a caster with poor gear options and an open subrace (stats aside, which ofc is important since a monksplash druid/cleric relies on both dex+wis for ac and is required to play up front @ spawns for best effect of bt/nb; while a mage has conceal and doesn't gaf about being anywhere except safely in the back + enjoys tactical options for repositioning/ninjaing like GV BBoD) a sorc can enjoy their feats for meta + "required" foci far better w/ open sub than a druid) easier than playing a sorc. Gear (or the lack thereof) is indeed a huge part of why I recommend a mage with two amazing tools that provide far more survivability and gear independence than any divine caster: EV and GV. As I mentioned above, a mage's access to crucial utility features such as BBoD, epic wall, DoM, mords, and GS is irreplaceable and lends in a unique way to helping someone with 0 gear. Druids can equip just about anything from anywhere? Sure, and a sorc has BBoD+GV+massive conceal+bonus slots, so I don't see any deficiency in terms of survival nor gearing. I don't think druid with mediocre AC (yes, open subrace 0demi 0gear pre-BUR) is easier to gear or play or survive with than anything with huge conceal + BBoD + GV, but aside from that, it's all about options, and a sorc simply has the most.
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Post by Torin on Sept 9, 2016 5:51:03 GMT
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Post by kingcamaro on Sept 15, 2016 5:39:17 GMT
My first build was a random gnome wizard I made up. The reason I built a wizard was for the variety of spells and pixie for opening locks. If I was to change the way I made it, I would have made it an elf, so that when I take lvl 40, I'd splash rogue to make good use of all my skill points. I later discovered these forums, and after seeing how a Turner worked in my party,that was my next aim. By the time I got my hands on a Fallen Angel subrace, I had made a few friends and they helped me to level my Turner (a Turner is a type of build that really benefits from having a party to level with, but atleast you can offer tanks some buffs). A Turner at level 60 is a nice build for hells, I'd recommend a 39 cleric 1 paladin build. Being charisma based, you will benefit from the high saves you will have. This is what I played in any hell run that I could run until I got very lucky with my first BUR subrace being Rilmani. With Rilmani I made a 38 druid 1 monk 1 bard build (bard for UMD to use scrolls from my wizard such as GS, BBoD) though replacing 1 bard with 1 paladin for higher saves is your choice. Druid was the first build that went to malad, cania and nessus to become my first demi. It was also the first druid in elysium when the area was first tested.
One important thing to remember at the end of the day, if you're unhappy with your toon you can always reincarnate... A feature that wasn't available at the time. (might be worth reading up on reincarnation at some point on the wiki)
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Post by magecat on Sept 18, 2016 22:14:29 GMT
My experience with what is current is sadly out of date, but you'll find that Higher Ground is very much about hoarding.
A new player, like in most games, is always in need of equipment that veterans take for granted.
If you are willing to post a bit of information here, I am certain that some of the vets will be willing to assist.
First, what is your character named? Second, when do you play and what time zone?
!newbie <type your message here>
will post an all servers message. You can use it to ask questions, ask for help, etc.
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Post by chainlink on Sept 19, 2016 10:22:46 GMT
No need to start a new character, due to the way reincarnation works as long as you are not immortal there are no restrictions on class changes so I'd use your easy to play character until level 40 then reincarnate it into whatever you want to play post 40 before you go on the immortality quest. Just remember to do this resonably quickly after you get to 40 as you'll lose any experience points gained above the cap for 40 when you reincarnate, this is not the case once you are immortal but it then limits the class changes you can make.
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Post by dante2377 on Sept 20, 2016 1:20:38 GMT
My character's name is Faruk and he is a Svirfneblin (spelling?). He's currently Cleric 21 Ranger 1, using the build Poli posted under Newbie Cleric. now that spells are rolling things are going well, was a bit slow first 12-14 levels. I'm not sure the animal empathy has been worth it, though I haven't found out what this Oltum is yet. The ability to use all the martial weapons is helpful.
My current gear is Hide armor +9, small shield +8, boots +7, amulet +6, wisdom ring from shop (wis +6, regen +1) x2, cloak with fear immunity, cleric helm +5 with KD immunity and some extra spells, belt with extra lvl 5 6 7 cleric spell. My weapon right now is a +5 mace with 2d6 sonic buffed with 2d4 fire and cold and raised to +6 with GMW. for mobs that I can kill in 1 round or less I just melee, the rest get a combination of Firestorm, Implosion, Destruction, Word of Faith, SOV etc. The area east of the crossroads give me 350-400+ XP per kill. I've gotten all the pre-LL tags 25 and under except the Spawn of Deep One Dragon. I was given one Sheath of Stealth and I found another one in loot.
I've partied up with 3-4 different people and everyone's been helpful with some starter gold, a few subrace books (though I'm not 50 yet), and advice.
I had 2 questions - 1. what's the command for listing the remaining duration of your spells is? 2. I see one of the shops in town has a few scrolls for purchase, but are scrolls prevalent to buy anywhere? I'd been selling the scrolls I found, but in thinking of other PCs (the staffmaster mentioned above looks interesting), should I be saving those?
thanks,
Dante
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Post by Paradoom on Sept 20, 2016 6:15:53 GMT
The command to see the duration is !effects. You use your command targeter and can target yourself with it. This also works on weapons to see the buff duration on them.
Well saving up arcane scrolls is certainly a good idea, if you plan to make some sort of wizard or quasi-class with wizard splash in the future.
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Post by chirality on Sept 20, 2016 6:31:59 GMT
Oltum spawns near a tree in the northeast corner of the Crossroads. He despawns so he may often not be present on a given server (if people have ran through Crossroads, spawned him, and left the map). Since you're already L22, you've already exceeded the point where he'd be useful to dominate with AE. Take that, ranger-splashers newbie didn't even need oltum that's for -hc- players and speedrunners If you have the additional voicechats package installed (highly recommended) you can use VVE to list your effects, and then VVQ to show buffs active on your equipment (basically buffs that specifically effect your gear, like weapon/armor buff spells) . Scrolls aren't really prevalent to buy; as far as shops go, those merchants in town are it (there is a special shop in the Temple of Tyr that sells a couple scrolls if you're NG alignment, but it's only a handful of spells, although one is UtD which is useful for a wizard). However, there are quite a few places in the "lowbie zones" where scrolls can be found. People ingame should be able to direct you to some of these locations (there's a couple spots which are basically scroll troves, and there's several places where a single scroll may be found). It should be extremely easy to have someone scribe you scrolls, since LL toons have so much xp that the cost of scribing is negligible (for example, scribing a stack of 10 L9 spells is ~ the xp of a single LL mob). Don't forget that a wizard can easily (ab?)use the de-level option from the Rowan Guardian by learning their 2 free levelup spells, scribing them, delevelling, learning 2 more, etc., but again people should be more than happy to scribe you anything you need so the hassle of delevelling shouldn't be something you find yourself needing. Don't make a staffmaster, especially a wis-based one If you want a tank though, you could do worse (or better, but "staying ontopic"). The aforementioned build doesn't make much sense as a suggestion to level 1-40, since it's weaker than a traditional air genasi 15/25 staffmaster at levels 1-39; it lacks WM levels, choses a poor subrace, and focuses on Wisdom with levelup stat bonuses (while having a Str of 6), but doesn't make any use of that until L40 when the monk splash is taken. If you really want to make a staffmaster, which makes enough sense as a self-sufficient, self-buffing tank that can handle lowbie tags and can use arcane scrolls and enjoys high conceal (basically a lot of the perks I mentioned above as coming with playing a mage, applied to a tank instead of a caster), you should just make a "normal" staffy. I'd recommend this build, which comes with bonus XP as well. If there's a problem with staffmaster for lowbie-ing, it's that like all quasiclasses, it plays like a weirdly-built, gimped hybrid version of a standard class until quasi status is attained, which is around the level you're at with your current toon.
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Post by dante2377 on Sept 20, 2016 16:00:21 GMT
thanks. A few more questions:
What builds do people tank with post 40? It sounds like most runs need 1 or more of ABCD, but sometimes it's nice to just grab a weapon, get your immunity gear in order, let someone else buff you, and bash away. What about for non-first PC's?
Are there any good baselines for AB and AC by levels? e.g. I'm level 24 now and have AC of 56 unbuffed, 60 with Life's Grace, and that seems to be fine for me - Going into the War Plains and fox trail (where I'm getting 150-380xp), I get hit somewhat, but nothing that's going to kill me unless I get caught flatfooted. Same with AB - my buffed AB is somewhere around 38-40 depending on Bulls' Str rolls and that is good enough to consistently hit creatures in those areas (though not as effective as spells obviously). I'm pretty happy with this guy so far (thanks Poli!) and like clerics so if anything he would only be reincarnated later as a better race cleric (possible pure or cl39 monk1, can probably drop the ranger level). I like to build with the end in mind (I have hundreds of CBC spreadsheets and now the build sheets from the vault for here).
In terms of weapon damage, I'm assuming exotic damages (magic, divine, positive, possibly negative unless undead) are better than elemenal in terms of enemies resists? e.g. If I'm choosing between weapons to get at the Import store, take the magic damage over elemental/sonic...
Regarding tags, are there any requirements to get the pre-LL tags for any gear or further quests? or are those just for the small bonuses and/or bragging rights?
thanks
Dante
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 21:24:36 GMT
What builds do people tank with post 40? It sounds like most runs need 1 or more of ABCD, but sometimes it's nice to just grab a weapon, get your immunity gear in order, let someone else buff you, and bash away. What about for non-first PC's? In general, non-caster melee toons (usually referred to as 'tanks') are underwhelming in the main endgame areas (Hell/Abyss), and are still mediocre at 40+ overall since they are inefficient for solo-farming XP/loot. Powerful tanks *do* exist, but they typically require 1) great gear, 2) high Paragon levels, and 3) several demi-iterations; new players have none of these, which is why we usually recommend learning the endgame on an ABCD core (Arcane/Bard/Cleric/Druid) and acquiring some decent gear before building a tank. With all that said, sometimes people just want to play a tank anyway. Maybe they aren't interested in the effort required to learn a core, or maybe they find the game difficult to grasp, or maybe they just really wanna bash stuff. I do stand by the statement that 'newbie tanks always suck in the endgame', but Lash of Hatred is a melee class that sucks a lot less than all the other options because it actually offers *some* utility to the party - by inflicting mobs so that the rest of your party can deal extra damage. Dragon Disciple is an okay option that often gets recommended, but while it is very sturdy it only offers a small amount of utility/offence to the party. I have been planning to write a Guide-thread for Lash of Hatred, I'll probably get to it today or tomorrow. In the meantime, Sabregirl has an okay enough Lash Build which is suitable as a starting point. Someone else will be able to answer this better than me. The bulk of my knowledge is for Level 60+ content, I mostly race through 1-60 since IMO the fun really begins in the endgame. It's hard to give a straight answer to this. Exotics tend to be more useful against most of the later tag bosses (eg: Dragons), but weapon buff spells work better when there is an existing elemental bonus on the weapon. This is because weapon buff spells are based on the damage dice already on weapons: your Darkfire spell might add '2 fire dice' to a weapon, so if the weapon already has +3d8 Fire damage it will be buffed to +5d8, if it had +2d6 it'll become +4d6... if there is no Fire on it already, you will just get +2d4. Especially at 40+, many enemies are vulnerable to 2-3 elements and 1-2 exotics more than anything else, so you will often carry multiple weapons with different types and swap them against specific enemies. They are not required for anything, but notably give a +5% XP boost which is handy for 40+, since it begins to require a LOT of experience to reach the next level. They also give minor combat boosts, but are mostly there to provide a framework to leveling over simple grinding.
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Post by chirality on Sept 21, 2016 0:23:58 GMT
the tag bonuses to imms and skills are really really great to have
nothing about it is required but in the case of xp, it makes your life easier and more enjoyable; in the case of imm%, it simply boosts your survival marginally; and in the case of skills it can often provide a crucial edge attaining optimal or maximized skill mod numbers
for the import store weapons, you should buy a cold one, a fire one, and a sonic one. like poli addressed, assuming the given target isn't highly resistant/immune to the given type, often the most important source of damage, and the biggest portion of the packet, is going to come from whatever you can have buffed the highest, so in the case of a cleric this will be fire or cold (which happen to be universally good standard bases since as a general rule a mob is either weaker to fire or weaker to cold, or both). in the lowbie zone, sonic is good for 2 reasons: 1) the Hel & Cohorts tag, where the 3 "bosses" are basically immune to everything except sonic damage; 2) there are many cases where sonic penetrates better than any other element, and you can buff your cold+fire and have the sonic as well.
i wouldn't bother buying those lizardfolk +magdice weapons, again this is all about getting the most dice of the largest size possible of some type that works, and mag buff comes only from pariah, and the only time it'd be worth considering to use those mag dmg shop weaps is against some dragon or other boss, but even then you should be able to find/trade for a L29/35 weapon that offers multiple damage types including exotics (only missing GMW but even +10 casted by you w/ no ench ranks is fine)
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Post by dante2377 on Sept 21, 2016 3:31:01 GMT
I'd found one that had 2d6 magic damage along with strength and dex bumps (magic fang). I hadn't realized that darkfire/coldfire would stack with existing damage bonus. I'll look into those. I have just enough gear for my level to go through areas, but not enough that it wouldn't hurt if I lost a key item for 24 hours due to dying (I've died 4 times and all 4 times I've lost an item, latest to the 294854 divine damage from the statue in the Hall of Statues).
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