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Post by giantsbane on Sept 28, 2016 11:45:22 GMT
Just wondering since I couldn't find any documentation about it being changed here, but has True seeing been altered to more closely mirror its original pnp counterpart? Wherein it doesn't automatically spot hidden characters (players or otherwise)?
The changes to shadowdancer making the trade mark stealth abuse skill hide in plain sight there 10th level ability to prevent 1 level dips for it makes me think this might be the case, but I figured I'd ask before making any rogue sneaker builds, I'm hoping this is a place where it's actually possible to be an effective sneaker again.
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Post by chirality on Sept 28, 2016 11:55:02 GMT
no
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Post by giantsbane on Sept 28, 2016 12:02:23 GMT
Damn, well that's disappointing. Is true seeing spread around higher level monsters like candy? Or just mainly the bosses, at which point the character would become effectively moot for boss fights without a group.
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Post by chirality on Sept 28, 2016 17:02:45 GMT
The short answer is that sneak attacks are useful here, but classes with sneak attack are more valuable for other features they bring to the table, so, with the possible "exception" of pure rogues (see below), sneak attacks are more of a bonus to help them dish out more damage in combat, not the defining trait of the class/archetype. This means that tying the usefulness of the character to sneak attacks is moot. As for bosses, this module is in many ways very different in terms of tactics and strategy from the standard vanilla meta, as well as pnp; as a rule, bosses are not something that are soloed (so it doesn't matter whether or not you can set up sneak attacks with flanking anyway, which seems what you were getting at), and they are also indeed immune to sneak attacks and crits (two separate immunities here, btw). True seeing is indeed widespread, starting at early levels (keep in mind that the 1-40 game is more or less unchanged from the "original" PoA module and is vastly different in many ways from the "LL" or legendary level areas that comprise the rest of the module here), and in LLs it's essentially universal. Does that make sneak attacks useless or the characters/class archetypes who employ them useless? Definitely not; what it does mean is that you're not going to be using HiPS to any effect, and the only way to go "invisible" is through Etherealness effects (there's many ways to get it, including the GS and Mass GS spells, Ghostly Visage for mages, and several useable or consumable items that provide a form of GS).
The long answer is that this is a party-based module, and unless you are a "caster" with the ability to cheese early/lowbie tag bosses and some later "LL runs", there are not many true "bosses" that are soloed in the first place. For farming xp and gold (and some set loot), and for exploration/building familiarity and skillset, solo capability may be important to a player, but in terms of overall tactics and dynamics, value is gained from how a character/class interacts within a group, not alone; in some ways, solo ability is really important (especially as a new player imo) as it allows you to build up enough cash/essential gear/xp on toon to participate properly in "endgame", but in other ways, party is king (the best gear, coolest areas, and best loot/xp rewards are acquired in areas that are either not viable or simply impossible mechanically to "solo"). As a metric for usefulness, something that might be very attractive on some modules (like the one I think I met you on, where the very final endgame area can be accomplished solo with a proper build/gear) doesn't have much footing here, so to bring this whole point home in regards to "sneakers", it's unimportant whether they can use Hide/Move Silently properly (due prevalence of True Seeing) or whether sneak attack works only if you have someone setting up a flank. It's slightly more important to consider what mobs may be sneak attacked, but again, this is more of a "how big will my damage be on that mob" rather than "how good is my character", so when applied to the big-picture meta, it's a lot less important than "can I pick this chest of phat lewt when we beat the boss" or "can I survive as a tank reliably enough to allow the more-fragile party members to do their jobs as efficiently as possible".
In the first line I mentioned "classes with sneak attacks". Generally speaking, these classes would be blackguards and lashes on the one hand, and rogues and "rogue-ish" 3/4 BAB d6 hitdie classes with rogue levels that can fully develop OL/DT/Search on the other hand. In the case of blackguards, they serve as tanks and are essentially an underpowered paladin in function; they are tanks and damage-dealers who seek to produce large damage and not get killed; sneak attacks are a nice little fluff for boosting their damage output on many mobs. In the case of lashes (a ranger/bg quasiclass), they serve as tanks who tend to produce quite a bit lower personal damage output, but tend to be very tanky (as dexers; str builds are a poor match) and they focus on improving the party's damage output and effectiveness as a whole with their special infliction (the term is used widely here to refer to spells or abilities that lower imm%). In the case of rogue-levelled shadowdancers and assassins, these classes tend to be able to serve as a "rogue" in LL/endgame runs where it's important to have a party member capable of picking chests containing great loot, and finding "secrets" that are also quite valuable; as well, assassins are radically changed from vanilla due to their "mortal strike" ability which functions as an instakill. For these classes, sneak attacks help boost their damage, but damage is not what they do best (rather, it's staying alive and providing utility to the party). In the case of rogues, they serve as the "picker" archetype better than anyone (due to the customized nature of Skill Mastery here), function as great tanks (very hard to kill or disable usually), and in some cases may seek to focus on dealing damage, with a few customized class features here that, in combination with items that add bonus attacks (to make up for poor 3/4 base), can lead to a very solid damage output when built and geared properly. As well, a pure rogue receives the unique ability to have their sneak attacks penetrate "normal" Immunity: Sneak Attack, with only a relative few mobs (such as bosses) remaining immune. For these rogues, sneak attacks tend to be seen as a critical component of their damage output, rather than simply a "kewl added thingy that works sometimes" in the case of the other classes mentioned above.
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Post by giantsbane on Sept 29, 2016 0:19:19 GMT
Well thanks for that insight, with the amount of information there is about this particular module I've been trying to read (and a good deal of it that needs to just be experienced) and I guess most of what i need to know will just have to come from playing
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