Every single mob type except Kaorti has an inflictor within them (slaads, giths, windscythes).. All Limbo elementals (massively) inflict (thalassi erdeen so forth + Eolian), shardsouls inflict. Zeugs inflict. Stormwardens inflict (massively). Aruchas/Warp Drifters inflict. Rarer mobs: Nishruu/Trilloch/Night Seed/ The other shadow thing inflict (Imentesh's Warpwave).
And that's just from the short list Woki posted - there's something like 60+ critters that can appear in P1 alone, and we are certainly missing a bunch. Another important thing to remember is that while the chance of getting a *specific* Uncommon mob (eg: Nishruu) might be relatively low, the chance of getting *any* Uncommon mob is practically a guarantee.
thats fine and dandy, but compare that with abyss where you have a majority of the spawn that inflicts for quite a lot, its a huge difference and coming from someone who has run both enough to know, you feel the difference
So are limbo critters are mostly neutral? (chaotic neutral I'd assume) This would affect smiters and battle clerics.
Yes. Normal Clerics won't get free Stun/Daze/Sleep Immunity (though there's no Sleep in Limbo anyway) from Aura vs Alignment either. Have not specifically tested it but I expect that only Blackguards are able to Smite effectively in Limbo; there are *some* Evil targets, but the vast majority (eg: Slaads/Githzerai etc) are Neutral.
Update: I've been gradually editing and fleshing out certain sections, at this point I've added ~1000 words since release and I think it's mostly complete in terms of what I wanted to cover. Once people (hopefully) start exploring the area for themselves, please let me know if there's anything essential that is currently not discussed.
Class/Build ranking! It's always a good source of discussion(drama).
My crude top: ABCD DMG Tank (all 2h, only swap to 1h when must): Paladin/Monk/CoT/Weapon Master(mainly pt1)/BG > Rogue Utility Tank: Bard covers 1 > Lash(primarily pt2)/Rogue > BC/BD/WC (warchanters' time to shine as a secondary(or third..) dmg tank thanks to iof?!) Soak Tank: Lash > Barb > Ranger?/DSMTank/BFMTank Hard to measure: Shifter, Ranger(conceal drop?) Potentially cool?: Herald
Notes: PT1: Lash less useful Notes: PT2: Lash feels almost mandatory for convenience, damn slaads endless slaads sturdy slaads more slaads and then come the 4 kaorti alienist spawns oh lawrd Notes: Shifter is really useful when learning the run / doing pt2; can help u learn what dmg heals or works + rocks for guaranteed phys dmg source
Class/Build ranking! It's always a good source of discussion(drama).
Indeed I considered adding a section about it, but originally decided not to mostly because it's so subjective - UT's are the only group of players to have really tried Limbo, so the current 'metagame' is relatively one-dimensional and is a better reflection of our pre-existing character vaults as opposed to a list of potentially effective classes. Some may disagree, but personally I don't think that the ideal class composition has changed dramatically (though the specific builds may have), apart from an increased focus on melee-damage and a higher level of difficulty encouraging adherence to 'optimal' compositions. For example, a solid 6-man party for Limbo could be "ABCD + 2H Tank + Lash"... but I would probably choose a similar 6-man party for the harder Pre-Paragon runs such as x30-Demi Nessus or Saving Pelor.
Anyway, it is probably worth discussing/sharing so here are my thoughts on 'class rankings' for Limbo. In terms of party composition, I think as long as ABCD roles are adequately covered, the rest of the party can be comfortably filled in with a bunch of Damage-Tanks and ideally some Utility-Tanks too. I think that skillful play (essentially following the tips in the OP) will go further than having the right build in most cases.
Obvious disclaimer that the following represents my personal views and is not to be taken as hard fact: furthermore, note that Limbo is a new and relatively untested area, so I am certainly open to to having my mind changed if reasonable evidence is presented (and I'm confident my opinions on various classes will gradually change over time as it is).
CORES Not quite as dominant as in the Level 60 areas, but they are still very important and add a lot of value to any group. Several viable options are available for each ABCD role, roughly ranked within the role in order of potential power (IMO) with 'good' choices overall bolded.
ARCANE:Sorcerer, Accursed Pariah*, Wizard, DSM-Mage, BFM-Mage Exactly what they bring to the table depends on the foci chosen; I rate Evocation as essential, and highly recommend taking Abjuration. The primary function is burst damage for the boss or nasty targets (eg: Chaos Roc, Amorphion, Kaorti), with typical spawns being too sturdy to efficiently nuke down in most cases. *Sorcerers have always been the gold standard, but Sorc-CC Pariahs that are specifically designed for Limbo (eg: triple-focus in Evocation/Abjuration/Transmutation - much easier to pull off with the XR race!) may* have the potential to approach the Sorcerer in overall value by boosting tank damage output and gaining a couple of nifty Pariah perks, whilst still being able to deliver comparable burst damage/utility for boss-fights. *Wizard sacrifices Sorcerer perks in exchange for versatility, but versatility is not hugely useful in Limbo. Definitely viable and better than nothing, but still inferior. *DSM (and the moderately inferior BFM, due to a less effective element) casters focus heavily on the burst damage aspect, and while still viable they are relatively restricted and can't quite match the versatility of 'true casters'.
BARD:Tank-Bard, Battle-Bard, Caster-Bard, Dwarven Warchanter IMO Tank-Bards were the previous gold standard, and maintain their crown in Limbo. Very sturdy and able to take a lot of heat off the rest of the party, while boasting a lot of high-impact Epics/Paragon spells for support. *Battle-Bard is uncommon, though with enough levels/gear a Rapier Wit variant is viable. Needs a decent OC/DC augmenter to pull off, and even then the damage is nothing to write home about since Piercing is a relatively weak damage-type in Limbo. *Caster-Bards have not been thoroughly tested in Limbo, but I suspect they would be inferior to a Tank-Bard; the offensive bonuses are less valuable than the utility gained from taking heat off the rest of the group. Note that Sonic damage is excellent in P1 but mediocre in P2. *Warchanters are really just a class for true low-man parties, which aren't possible in Limbo due to 5-man restriction. IMO it does not fill the Bard role adequately in Limbo, but does bring +16 GMW to the table (IoF); can be handy to supplement a well-rounded party, but if you already have another source available (eg: Cleric, Pariah) then they aren't a high-impact pick.
CLERIC:Battle-Cleric, Support/Tank-Cleric, Caster (Ploder), Turner The Cleric duty in Limbo mostly consists of providing key epics and some degree of GR availability. I think all four variants are able to adequately fill this role, each with their own set of pros/cons.
DRUID:Caster, Battle-Druid (Stormlord) The Druid role can be simplified to SR drop + Epics/Fonts, but advanced further to consider unique insta-kills (more important in P2). *A well-built Stormlord can fill the role to some degree for P1 (especially in a smaller group), packing more of a punch than a regular Druid in exchange for reduced SR drop. They are relatively gear reliant (OC/DC augmenter helps a LOT), and are unsuitable for filling the Druid role in P2.
SHIFTER:Ability Usually not considered a core, but they are versatile and so jam-packed with abilities that they almost feel like one. Relatively hard to place them in terms of power, they end up being a jack-of-all-trades in some respects but are overall pretty good at dealing AoE damage while ignoring SR. *Particularly strong in P1 due to SR-ignoring Death Magic/Poison attacks being efficient ways to solo-snipe Archers.
DAMAGE-TANKS Really important for finishing the run quickly and smoothly. The main factors in ranking tanks include 1) damage output, 2) sturdiness, 3) added utility for the party, and 4) degree of gear-dependence - they ALL rely on gear, but some of them more than others. In general, well-built 2Hers will significantly outperform 1Hers, but they typically need high levels/high-demi/good gear and a good player controlling them (all of which are assumed in these rankings); note that a well-built 1Her is still more effective than a poorly-built 2Her. For those who aren't so familiar with the concept behind 2Hers, I wrote a post covering the basics here. With all that in mind, I've loosely sorted the main tank options into three 'grades' based on the qualities above, with each grade listed alphabetically. Just because a class is in a lower grade does NOT mean that it straight up sucks or won't be able to hold its own in the run - it just means that I think other classes can do the job better. This 'tier list' is NOT Limbo specific, I think it roughly holds for all endgame areas (except Champion of Torm could probably go into A-Grade outside of Limbo).
A-Grade: 2H Battle Cleric [Fills a core role as well] [Note: doesn't get Crit Immunity or free immunities to Stun/Daze in Limbo] 2H Blackguard 2H Monk 2H Paladin [Note: Unable to Smite in Limbo] 2H Ranger [Conceal-drop]
B-Grade:(Small step down from A-Grade) 2H Champion of Torm [Note: +16 Soak is much less effective in Limbo than in other endgame areas] 2H Fighter 2H Rogue [Pickpocket] 2H Warchanter [IoF, Haste for poorboys that don't have a Wrap of the Dark Prince] 2H Weapon Master [High-AB Disarm]
C-Grade:(Moderate step down from B-Grade) Barbarian (Shapestrong) [Potential minor utility from Terrifying Rage] Dragon Disciple [Minor utility from Dragonfear Aura] 1H Tanks (in general) - Lower damage output, but can often still deal *okay* damage and can be much sturdier. You are usually better off just picking a 1Her from the below 'Utility-Tank' list instead.
UTILITY-TANKS Usually 1H tanks that are chosen for party-wide benefits instead of raw individual power. Extremely effective for supplementing larger groups that are already well-rounded. Battle-focused versions of Bard/Cleric/Druid are not included, due to being mentioned in the 'Cores' section already. So, in no particular order:
Lash of Hatred - Inflictions! Great for sturdy targets, great for boss fights. Also able to take a beating and pull some heat off the more fragile members of the group. Shifter (Melee) - Functionally very similar to a Lash when using Lizardfolk Shape, and also has access to Kobold Traps. By far the biggest downside in Limbo is that certain mobs have special abilities which force a de-shift, making this clunkier than normal (already a little clunky due to risk of bugging on death). DSM-Tank - Sturdy tank with some special Electric attacks (useful in practically all of Limbo), notably massive Infliction from Breath of the Beast (CON Arti), and minor save-drop from Dragonfear Aura. BFM-Tank - As with the caster version, similar concept to the DSM but moderately inferior (especially in P1) due to a less suitable element. Ranger (Pure) - Large conceal drop would theoretically help a lot in tank-heavy groups, especially in P2.
"WILD-CARDS" Perhaps have some theoretical potential, but I haven't seen them enough to really judge yet. I doubt any of them would be *very* powerful, but perhaps situationally useful? In alphabetical order:
Herald of Storms Lifethreader Smiter (Blackguard) - The only class that can Smite most targets in Limbo, remains to be seen how effective this really is. Staffmaster - Possibly very effective for damaging Kaorti by piercing their huge Soak, but likely weak against many other targets (eg: Slaads). Theurge (Zen) Ranger - Possibly some use in P1 for sniping Archers... low damage would mean they still aren't very good overall.
MEDIOCRE I expect the following classes to be less effective than the ones listed above; for the most part I haven't seen these in action, but I'm still reasonably confident of where they've been placed. In alphabetical order:
I can add some stuff to the Dwarven Defender section:
Mine is dual-wielding dwarven waraxes and uses a light Armor to have at least some ac (midst upper 130s). Infliction is a problem on it and certainly requires restores from the outside. Saves are practically irrelevant and you have to cover every problematic thing they can throw at you via gear. Extra fun without a shield and here is the biggest downer for such a toon. You have to be very lucky on randomized stuff to cover it all == rich people character if you want to use it in limbo. (but on other areas a valid toon for anyone)
On the have side: The damage-output is pretty nice overall and the high HP and soak help to reduce incomming damage/increase survival. On choke-points in defence stance with the resto-font up, this toon dishes out good dps and cannot be brought down easily. With the draw foes you also have a chance to keep mobs focused on you making it easier for other tanks to hit and sneak.
I have a pure tank version in the making, which goes sword and board style. It has higher physical immunities and resists, more hp and uses heavy plate with a tower shield. Once I get it ready and have it run there I can tell more about it.
Turners seem to fit a niche role in part 1. They turns Slaad and Quarks with little to no difficulty. I had an easy time even turning Elite Quarks, so make sure you tell your tanks they can skip on confusion immunity, as Quarks are basically nigh useless with a turner around. Your build should also have an easy time fitting in either Paragon Abjuration or/and Paragon Enchantment, so you'll also be able to banish Slaad summons (which shouldn't happen if you are turning) and most importantly Alienist summons. You'll spend most of the time rebuking on the run as a lot of stuff is rebukable. The only thing I have been able to kill through turns with ease have been Mud Slaads, so make sure you turn twice when you see them, as they can be quite annoying and even dangerous if they stay around too long.
I'm also curious as to why the possibility of Arcane Physical Damage Theurges have never been considered as a strong build on Limbo runs. It's the same reasoning as how Heralds might be strong, a lot of their spells ticks so they can overcome SR, and their spell abilities will stack with all the damage coming with 2 handers. I've been planning a Pure Theurge that dedicates to physical damage spells to see how well they can do in limbo. I imagine the main arguments against it will be the nerf to RG and SR, but there are so much other spells than just RG, and again, most of the damage comes from AoEs so the spells will inevitably overcome SR.