Post by Raj on Feb 17, 2017 23:00:51 GMT
Let face it, as long as you don't die too much and you curse mobs, your terrible old bard build is still welcome on parties and is a great way for newbies to get into end game content and collect fabulous loot.
Nonetheless, there have been quite many updates since most builds have been created (yea, they're that old) and a recent hotfix has gone almost unnoticed.
The following builds are aimed at guys new to the incredibly exciting bard experience, playing in level appropriate runs: this means high enough armor class to fix the 'dieing too much' issue and no spell penetration/dc-related abilities. Yes, they're that much useless.
There have been plenty of spell edits for bards and you could play them as a caster, but going that route (taking SP feats, maxing charisma) means giving up on some of the gamebreaking epic/paragon spells they provide and have one more squishy guy in party, where bards are probably the best tanks in the module: since you have to stand near the frontline for most of your support duty, you might as well be the 140+ ac, 80%+ conceal guy with fat immunities keeping the party alive and kicking, rather than a very mediocre damage dealer (coff rapier wit bards) or a wannabe mage.
With a different build you could land some phantasmal killer or deal some damage with your ice storms, but if the party needs the bard to provide instakill or damage you have some big problem, because other casters do that with better SP, DC, higher damage dices, stronger crowd control and more slots. Or, you're playing a level 80 carrying a bunch of newbies in Hells. Quite ironically, daze/confusion spells of which bards are masters are very effective in the Abyss or Limbo, but try go there with just ~130 ac, lower saves or lacking some of the many must-have epic spells and then post your (and more importantly, your party's) death score here.
A solid tank/support build, in level appropriate areas, this is what this thread is about.
Screenshot of a freshly reincarnated bard, proving I'm not one of those silly guys sitting on 10 years old builds collecting xp that forum users looking for help should avoid like plague. Also, pretty numbers.
If you're a new bard player, check this build guidelines.
If you're an old player who owns BUR Shard but is starting from scratch, remember the build ends 4 charisma short pre-demi, so you better not take any of the Abjuration foci and take 4 Great CHA, then reincarnate once x2.
What can these bards provide
- Max epics aura aoe (reached at 60 cha)
- All relevant epics (UUU, HMR, DotD)
- The most unbalanced paragon spells (Army, Phane)
- Sick saves thanks to splash and proper skills guarantee enough sturdiness
Open Race Build
This is very similar to the open race build already posted, because with the need of high cha there's little room for other feats.
I gave up on artist/legendary artist on this version because it's not really something you bring to hells+, and even if you do, the penalities to perform skill don't let you cast a full level 63 song (requirement: 126 perform).
There's room for a spare epic spell and I went for the Evocation one, a solid dmg cloud useful in your legendary adventures, where massing maps is a time saver. Divination one would be a safe alternative.
UR/lvl 60 Build
This is something cheap you can happily play all the way toward multiple demigod iterations; it's not a min-maxed build because you need to take some charisma feats to qualify for the huge epics aura size, and demigod stats will make you feel you wasted them. That's why, in order to squeeze another epic school you should reincarnate right after x2 even if you don't plan to change subrace.
The build qualifies for Legendary Artist and max level song, so ESF:Perform has been taken to act as a buffer against the harsh hell skill penalities you're going to get at 0-1x demigod.
BUR/Demi 2+ Build
It's time to move to Abyss to collect the juicy +16 gear and some important pieces of set loot. Dropping the Evocation epic (sonic/divine are great in Hells, but you're already overkill there, while those damage types are pretty much useless to have in Abyss, so it loses quite some appeal) for Abjuration comes naturally, since there're so many caster types by now that you want to have some Dispel ability. The Abj epic providing great physical immunity, and Energy Immunity being available, help making you tanky enough for such areas. Shard loses one useful feat compared to Chaos Gnome, but your higher DEX/CON come handy in the frontline and greatly make up for it.
The level 80 build
It's not a gnome, because I hate gnomes.
It's the build that introduces this post and has everything I deem necessary for the endgame, but for you shorties lovers I'm going to post a Shard version later.
That being said, we're just polishing the build here, taking the minimum necessary charisma (hence being half guardinal with their lame +2 doesn't lose us too much) and giving up on those damn gnomes free feats in order to be 1) prettier 2) overkill defensively, thanks to evasion and petrification immunity, both handy abilities in Limbo (and where're you going to play a level 80 anyway? Hells? Puah!). That being said, you could drop DEX by 2 at creation and place 1 point into CHA (freeing up a feat - no more need for great cha I), and remove two other feats (my vote to legendary trans and armor skin, or legendary+paragon abj) to fit Evo Epic back, because the cloud is actually quite nice for Limbo (mostly part 1). Not recommended anyway, I hope you'd appreciate the benefits of higher AC by now.
Feats/Skills Discussion
A lot of stuff should be pretty obvious, but some choices might raise an eyebrow or two.
Legendary Spell Focus Transmutation is taken exclusively for the Mass Haste spell. It's a subtle increment in damage but this spell is a lot better use of your level 6 slots (and 7 with the extended version, if good randomized gear) than an Ice Storm. Take a look at the tanks in your team, check how much damage/hit they're doing, multiply that by the added attacks that usually land and notice how you're really contributing a lot to the damage against hard enemies. Keep cast it every 6-12 seconds in boss fights.
Parry skill, even if you are immune to critical hits when under the effect of 'Dirge of the Deathless' (Necromancy Epic): this because in most spawns you're going to turn on 'Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken' first, and there's a 6 seconds delay in between epics. Sometime you might have to activate 'Hear Me Roar' as well as a priority, hence delaying DotD even more, or you are the only one tanking the lone enemy left and might as well save charges.
No Taunt. If you read about the taunt skill in some bard build, then it's outdated or just bad, because persuade skill is just a lot more useful in the endgame, and the two effects are mutually exclusive. You could alternate taunt and persuade but it's a unnecessary complication and 99% of time the target you might want to taunt is better dealt with lowering its spell resistance than its armor class anyway.
1 point in spellcraft just to know what spells are being casted around you, while 15 UMD is what you need with your charisma and a song to wear some restricted gear (60 needed for the anti-dispel cleric-only helmet for example), and more than enough to use scrolls even in deep Hells.
Armor Skin? Craft Armor? Yes. You want to enter hells almost at the 130 AC mark, and limbo at 140+. Boring old armor class is necessary for the guy who MUST stay alive: if you keep dieing in an hard spawn your party is losing all your auras, same if you are forced to stay back and rebuff or activate a sanctuary, and the spawn suddendly became harder for them all.
Paladin splash: you lose 5% concealment against a pure bard, and your bestow curse drops SR by 11 points instead of 12. That's pretty much it, and is offset if you manage to put your hands on a CL Bard Ego (Liira). Even if you don't, that sacrifice is a little thing compared to all the feats you don't have to invest into saves anymore, netting you one or even two epics. Sure, at level 80 with +16 gear, artifact and multiple demi iterations your saves even on a pure build who didn't take a single feat are more than enough for Hells/Ely, but the build has to work at every level, in the relevant areas.
No Lore. I don't want to force bards to bank and use Treasure Scent, it's really a thankless job and there's no feedback in game that proves your waste of time and skillpoints is netting that much more loot for the party. Pre-randomization it might have been more noticeable, now the loot is so random that we're fishing for good properties and augments more than base gear. Also, bards shouldn't bank. Ideally the most useless guy (bonus points if it has monk levels for speed) should be put on bank duty, and bard is never useless: in fact, if you wait for the bard to bank you're slowing down the run, while if you're spawning without the bard, or the bard is busy banking mid fight, you are losing aura support and one good tank, sometime also fighting uncursed enemies. Do yourself a favor and tell everybody to help banking and do a "!list loot" command during the split to be sure it's all in. If you're the bard and people think it's all upon you, don't bank at all and then point people at this thread, I'll be happy to angry yell at them.
Wow, sounds like you're a great bard player! Can you play bard in the Nessus run we are planning to do...
NO! I don't like barding, I want YOU to play bard for me, and if you follow an updated build I promise you'll get many thanks and loot and tags, more than any other toon you could be playing in the same time. Thanks in advance!
Ok I'll bring my rapier wit guy... no wait! I'll make a warchanter, I heard some good player posted a cool build or two...
IF you can have fun being the support guy the party relies upon, then a proper 'caster' bard is better to have around than any possible 'battle' bard. Sure, parties might not have the luxury to choose what sort of bard is going to apply, and a warchanter is better than nothing, but if you don't like to be under too much pressure (because really, playing a support bard is very effective and most of the time it doesn't require as much focus as other cores) while at the same time always be welcome, give this role a try. It also is lot less gear demanding than melee hybrids.
Nonetheless, there have been quite many updates since most builds have been created (yea, they're that old) and a recent hotfix has gone almost unnoticed.
- Bards can now exchange the Extra Spell Known (Level 6) feat for Epic Spell Focus feats in epic levels by using the !charedit command. This swap is no longer available once you take your first legendary level.
The following builds are aimed at guys new to the incredibly exciting bard experience, playing in level appropriate runs: this means high enough armor class to fix the 'dieing too much' issue and no spell penetration/dc-related abilities. Yes, they're that much useless.
There have been plenty of spell edits for bards and you could play them as a caster, but going that route (taking SP feats, maxing charisma) means giving up on some of the gamebreaking epic/paragon spells they provide and have one more squishy guy in party, where bards are probably the best tanks in the module: since you have to stand near the frontline for most of your support duty, you might as well be the 140+ ac, 80%+ conceal guy with fat immunities keeping the party alive and kicking, rather than a very mediocre damage dealer (coff rapier wit bards) or a wannabe mage.
With a different build you could land some phantasmal killer or deal some damage with your ice storms, but if the party needs the bard to provide instakill or damage you have some big problem, because other casters do that with better SP, DC, higher damage dices, stronger crowd control and more slots. Or, you're playing a level 80 carrying a bunch of newbies in Hells. Quite ironically, daze/confusion spells of which bards are masters are very effective in the Abyss or Limbo, but try go there with just ~130 ac, lower saves or lacking some of the many must-have epic spells and then post your (and more importantly, your party's) death score here.
A solid tank/support build, in level appropriate areas, this is what this thread is about.
Screenshot of a freshly reincarnated bard, proving I'm not one of those silly guys sitting on 10 years old builds collecting xp that forum users looking for help should avoid like plague. Also, pretty numbers.
Optimized for (I 100% stole this nice format from Vichya's build) | Your first bard, starting from scratch | Level 50+, UR reincarnation | Level 60+ and 2x demi (assumes +4 cha from demi and +14 items), BUR reincarnation | Level 80, final build (assumes +6 cha from demi and PLs and +16 items) |
Build | Bard 39, Paladin 1 | Bard 39, Paladin 1 | Bard 39, Paladin 1 | Bard 39, Paladin 1 |
Race/Subrace | Gnome "Fire Gnome" STR -2, CHA +2 resist fire 5/-; can firewalk | Gnome "Chaos Gnome" DEX +2, CHA +4 free feat: Spell Focus - Enchantment, free feat: Curse Song base SR 15 +1/lvl | Gnome "Shard" DEX +4, CON +4, CHA +4 free feat: Lasting Inspiration, free feat: Extra Music, free feat: Lingering Song increased base movement rate - very fast | Half-Elf "Half-Guardinal" STR +4, DEX +4, INT +2, CHA +2 free feat: Dodge, free feat: Evasion, free feat: Epic Energy Resist Cold 1, free feat: Epic Energy Resist Acid 1 25% Elec Immune, Immune to Petrification. |
Abilities at character creation (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) Note: Int and Wis as listed in different order at creation compared to how they appear on sheet | 6, 16, 14, 14, 8, 16 | 6, 16, 14, 14, 8, 16 | 6, 16, 14, 14, 8, 16 | 8, 16, 14, 14, 8, 15 |
Abilities after Subrace edits | 4, 16, 14, 14, 8, 18 | 6, 18, 14, 14, 8, 20 | 6, 20, 18, 14, 8, 20 | 12, 20, 14, 16, 8, 17 |
Ability points | All Points in Charisma | All Points in Charisma | All Points in Charisma | All Points in Charisma |
Pre-epic feats (in no particular order) | Curse Song Metamagic: Extend Spell Spell Focus: Enchantment Spell Focus: Transmutation Spell Focus: Necromancy Spell Focus: Evocation Greater Spell Focus: Illusion | Artist Metamagic: Extend Spell Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Spell Focus: Transmutation Spell Focus: Necromancy Spell Focus: Evocation Greater Spell Focus: Illusion | Artist Curse Song Metamagic: Extend Spell Spell Focus: Enchantment Spell Focus: Transmutation Spell Focus: Necromancy Spell Focus: Abjuration | Artist Curse Song Metamagic: Extend Spell Spell Focus: Enchantment Spell Focus: Transmutation Spell Focus: Necromancy Spell Focus: Abjuration |
Epic feats | Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Greater Spell Focus: Evocation Lasting Inspiration Great Charisma x2 | Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Greater Spell Focus: Evocation Lasting Inspiration Epic Skill Focus: Perform Great Charisma x2 | Greater Spell Focus: Illusion Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Epic Skill Focus: Perform Great Charisma x2 | Spell Focus: Illusion Greater Spell Focus: Illusion Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Lasting Inspiration Great Charisma x1 |
Bard bonus feats | Great Charisma x6 | Great Charisma x4 Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Illusion | Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Illusion Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Transmutation | Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Illusion Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy Extra Spells(6) -> Epic Spell Focus: Transmutation |
Legendary level feats | Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment Epic Spell Focus: Illusion Legendary Spell Focus: Illusion Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy Epic Spell Focus: Evocation Epic Spell Focus: Transmutation Armor Skin | Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy Epic Spell Focus: Evocation Epic Spell Focus: Transmutation Legendary Spell Focus: Enchantment Legendary Spell Focus: Illusion Legendary Spell Focus: Conjuration Legendary Artist | Legendary Spell Focus: Enchantment Legendary Spell Focus: Illusion Legendary Spell Focus: Transmutation Legendary Spell Focus: Conjuration Legendary Spell Focus: Abjuration Legendary Artist Armor Skin | Legendary Spell Focus: Enchantment Legendary Spell Focus: Illusion Legendary Spell Focus: Transmutation Legendary Spell Focus: Conjuration Legendary Spell Focus: Abjuration Legendary Artist Armor Skin |
Paragon level feats (recommended order) | (you should have found a better race to reincarnate by now) | Paragon Spell Focus: Illusion Paragon Spell Knowledge: Illusion Paragon Spell Focus: Enchantment Paragon Spell Focus: Conjuration Paragon Spell Knowledge: Conjuration Paragon Spell Knowledge: Enchantment | Paragon Spell Focus: Illusion Paragon Spell Knowledge: Illusion Paragon Spell Focus: Enchantment Paragon Spell Focus: Conjuration Paragon Spell Knowledge: Conjuration Paragon Spell Focus: Abjuration | Paragon Spell Focus: Enchantment Paragon Spell Focus: Conjuration Paragon Spell Knowledge: Conjuration Paragon Spell Focus: Abjuration Paragon Spell Focus: Illusion Paragon Spell Knowledge: Illusion |
Tome | Conjuration | Conjuration | Conjuration | Conjuration |
Artifact | | The Orb of Dragonkind (CON) | The Orb of Dragonkind (CON) | The Orb of Dragonkind (CON) |
Pandect | | Spell Resistance | Craft Armor | Craft Armor |
Skills | Concentration 43 Craft Armor 63 Discipline 63 Heal 63 Parry 63 Perform 63 Persuade 63 Pick Pocket 63 Spellcraft 1 Tumble 60 Use Magic Device 15 | Concentration 43 Craft Armor 63 Discipline 63 Heal 63 Parry 63 Perform 63 Persuade 63 Pick Pocket 63 Spellcraft 1 Tumble 60 Use Magic Device 15 | Concentration 43 Craft Armor 63 Discipline 63 Heal 63 Parry 63 Perform 63 Persuade 63 Pick Pocket 63 Spellcraft 1 Tumble 60 Use Magic Device 15 | Concentration 43 Craft Armor 63 Discipline 63 Heal 63 Parry 63 Perform 63 Persuade 63 Pick Pocket 63 Spellcraft 1 Tumble 60 Use Magic Device 15 |
Paragon Skills | | | | Craft Armor 20 Parry 20 Persuade 20 |
| Song Level | Curse Level |
Attack Bonus | 41 (+3 AB) | 41 (-3 AB) |
Armour Class | 63 (+4 AC) | 63 (-4 AC) |
Damage | 57 (+8 DMG) | 13 (-3 DMG) |
Saves | 33 (+2 Fort, +2 Reflex, +3 Will) | 63 (-4 Fort, -4 Reflex, -5 Will) |
Skills | 63 (+21 Skills) | 63 (-21 Skills) |
If you're a new bard player, check this build guidelines.
If you're an old player who owns BUR Shard but is starting from scratch, remember the build ends 4 charisma short pre-demi, so you better not take any of the Abjuration foci and take 4 Great CHA, then reincarnate once x2.
What can these bards provide
- Max epics aura aoe (reached at 60 cha)
- All relevant epics (UUU, HMR, DotD)
- The most unbalanced paragon spells (Army, Phane)
- Sick saves thanks to splash and proper skills guarantee enough sturdiness
Open Race Build
This is very similar to the open race build already posted, because with the need of high cha there's little room for other feats.
I gave up on artist/legendary artist on this version because it's not really something you bring to hells+, and even if you do, the penalities to perform skill don't let you cast a full level 63 song (requirement: 126 perform).
There's room for a spare epic spell and I went for the Evocation one, a solid dmg cloud useful in your legendary adventures, where massing maps is a time saver. Divination one would be a safe alternative.
UR/lvl 60 Build
This is something cheap you can happily play all the way toward multiple demigod iterations; it's not a min-maxed build because you need to take some charisma feats to qualify for the huge epics aura size, and demigod stats will make you feel you wasted them. That's why, in order to squeeze another epic school you should reincarnate right after x2 even if you don't plan to change subrace.
The build qualifies for Legendary Artist and max level song, so ESF:Perform has been taken to act as a buffer against the harsh hell skill penalities you're going to get at 0-1x demigod.
BUR/Demi 2+ Build
It's time to move to Abyss to collect the juicy +16 gear and some important pieces of set loot. Dropping the Evocation epic (sonic/divine are great in Hells, but you're already overkill there, while those damage types are pretty much useless to have in Abyss, so it loses quite some appeal) for Abjuration comes naturally, since there're so many caster types by now that you want to have some Dispel ability. The Abj epic providing great physical immunity, and Energy Immunity being available, help making you tanky enough for such areas. Shard loses one useful feat compared to Chaos Gnome, but your higher DEX/CON come handy in the frontline and greatly make up for it.
The level 80 build
It's not a gnome, because I hate gnomes.
It's the build that introduces this post and has everything I deem necessary for the endgame, but for you shorties lovers I'm going to post a Shard version later.
That being said, we're just polishing the build here, taking the minimum necessary charisma (hence being half guardinal with their lame +2 doesn't lose us too much) and giving up on those damn gnomes free feats in order to be 1) prettier 2) overkill defensively, thanks to evasion and petrification immunity, both handy abilities in Limbo (and where're you going to play a level 80 anyway? Hells? Puah!). That being said, you could drop DEX by 2 at creation and place 1 point into CHA (freeing up a feat - no more need for great cha I), and remove two other feats (my vote to legendary trans and armor skin, or legendary+paragon abj) to fit Evo Epic back, because the cloud is actually quite nice for Limbo (mostly part 1). Not recommended anyway, I hope you'd appreciate the benefits of higher AC by now.
Feats/Skills Discussion
A lot of stuff should be pretty obvious, but some choices might raise an eyebrow or two.
Legendary Spell Focus Transmutation is taken exclusively for the Mass Haste spell. It's a subtle increment in damage but this spell is a lot better use of your level 6 slots (and 7 with the extended version, if good randomized gear) than an Ice Storm. Take a look at the tanks in your team, check how much damage/hit they're doing, multiply that by the added attacks that usually land and notice how you're really contributing a lot to the damage against hard enemies. Keep cast it every 6-12 seconds in boss fights.
Parry skill, even if you are immune to critical hits when under the effect of 'Dirge of the Deathless' (Necromancy Epic): this because in most spawns you're going to turn on 'Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken' first, and there's a 6 seconds delay in between epics. Sometime you might have to activate 'Hear Me Roar' as well as a priority, hence delaying DotD even more, or you are the only one tanking the lone enemy left and might as well save charges.
No Taunt. If you read about the taunt skill in some bard build, then it's outdated or just bad, because persuade skill is just a lot more useful in the endgame, and the two effects are mutually exclusive. You could alternate taunt and persuade but it's a unnecessary complication and 99% of time the target you might want to taunt is better dealt with lowering its spell resistance than its armor class anyway.
1 point in spellcraft just to know what spells are being casted around you, while 15 UMD is what you need with your charisma and a song to wear some restricted gear (60 needed for the anti-dispel cleric-only helmet for example), and more than enough to use scrolls even in deep Hells.
Armor Skin? Craft Armor? Yes. You want to enter hells almost at the 130 AC mark, and limbo at 140+. Boring old armor class is necessary for the guy who MUST stay alive: if you keep dieing in an hard spawn your party is losing all your auras, same if you are forced to stay back and rebuff or activate a sanctuary, and the spawn suddendly became harder for them all.
Paladin splash: you lose 5% concealment against a pure bard, and your bestow curse drops SR by 11 points instead of 12. That's pretty much it, and is offset if you manage to put your hands on a CL Bard Ego (Liira). Even if you don't, that sacrifice is a little thing compared to all the feats you don't have to invest into saves anymore, netting you one or even two epics. Sure, at level 80 with +16 gear, artifact and multiple demi iterations your saves even on a pure build who didn't take a single feat are more than enough for Hells/Ely, but the build has to work at every level, in the relevant areas.
No Lore. I don't want to force bards to bank and use Treasure Scent, it's really a thankless job and there's no feedback in game that proves your waste of time and skillpoints is netting that much more loot for the party. Pre-randomization it might have been more noticeable, now the loot is so random that we're fishing for good properties and augments more than base gear. Also, bards shouldn't bank. Ideally the most useless guy (bonus points if it has monk levels for speed) should be put on bank duty, and bard is never useless: in fact, if you wait for the bard to bank you're slowing down the run, while if you're spawning without the bard, or the bard is busy banking mid fight, you are losing aura support and one good tank, sometime also fighting uncursed enemies. Do yourself a favor and tell everybody to help banking and do a "!list loot" command during the split to be sure it's all in. If you're the bard and people think it's all upon you, don't bank at all and then point people at this thread, I'll be happy to angry yell at them.
Wow, sounds like you're a great bard player! Can you play bard in the Nessus run we are planning to do...
NO! I don't like barding, I want YOU to play bard for me, and if you follow an updated build I promise you'll get many thanks and loot and tags, more than any other toon you could be playing in the same time. Thanks in advance!
Ok I'll bring my rapier wit guy... no wait! I'll make a warchanter, I heard some good player posted a cool build or two...
IF you can have fun being the support guy the party relies upon, then a proper 'caster' bard is better to have around than any possible 'battle' bard. Sure, parties might not have the luxury to choose what sort of bard is going to apply, and a warchanter is better than nothing, but if you don't like to be under too much pressure (because really, playing a support bard is very effective and most of the time it doesn't require as much focus as other cores) while at the same time always be welcome, give this role a try. It also is lot less gear demanding than melee hybrids.