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Post by louisvilleslugger on Mar 20, 2017 20:39:52 GMT
Herald of storms is supposed to be the "best of the best" when it comes to conjuration and enchantment schools, but it has a very large drawback: no epic and no paragon spells for those schools.
That's a deal breaker.
To fix this:
Idea 1:
Grant free Epic Spells and Paragon spells upon reaching the correct focus for whatever control class it is (druid or sorc upon reaching ESF/PSF)
or
Idea 2:
Allow for epics by redoing the class requirements to 14 Druid, 14 Sorcerer instead. This would allow for a 25/15 or 25/14/1 splash build.
Thoughts?
-Outkast
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Post by simpetar on Mar 20, 2017 21:14:21 GMT
I believe the idea was that the lack of epic and paragon spells would be outweighed by the quasi benefits (other than the spell edits): lots of free feats, spirit, 2 specializations without a barred school. Forcing 16 levels of both to reach the quasi was most likely EXACTLY meant to block epics. On the other hand, it seems bit unfair, since other caster quasis can get them - theurges, BFM/DSMs (and, well, pariahs get their wall  ). But the idea of a herald running around with Reclamation, Weapon Spren, or Bigby Swarm is scary. Also if the requirements for quasi were lowered to 14/14, consider that heralds would gain access to other schools as well - namely imagine full herald soup boosted by Karsus. |
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Post by woqued on Mar 20, 2017 22:14:38 GMT
I believe the idea was that the lack of epic and paragon spells would be outweighed by the quasi benefits (other than the spell edits): lots of free feats, spirit, 2 specializations without a barred school. Forcing 16 levels of both to reach the quasi was most likely EXACTLY meant to block epics. On the other hand, it seems bit unfair, since other caster quasis can get them - theurges, BFM/DSMs (and, well, pariahs get their wall ). But the idea of a herald running around with Reclamation, Weapon Spren, or Bigby Swarm is scary. Also if the requirements for quasi were lowered to 14/14, consider that heralds would gain access to other schools as well - namely imagine full herald soup boosted by Karsus. DISCLAIMER: I'm not a Herald player. That being said, when I've had one in my party I often wished it was something else or considered it largely irrelevant if not for some fond memories of lvl 45-59 runs farmed with weak (open sub, ur sub tier with weak gear) toons. Moving on. Would you consider a Herald like this scarier than a more versatile caster simply not picking those same feats (mostly looking at conjuration here) because they're not good enough in comparison to what they can do with other stuff... Dunno. Regardless, getting the epics of either Arcane or Druid (depending on CC) for Conj + Ench should be granted upon taking the needed feat, imo. [[ Limited to Conj + Ench still - makes sense and wouldn't want Karsus cloudkill or the statdrain soups ]] - That should make them good enough to make and play. Current HoS + one of these sets, either the druid epics or the sorc epics of the two relevant schools: - Druid:Conj Epic - Effect: Concealment on the caster and their party of 1%/casterlevel for 1 round/casterlevel. Only works if within 6 levels of the caster. Conj Paragon - Effect: Grants entire party a damage bonus effect equal to 1 per 5 casterlevels, capping at +16 at casterlevel 80. The druid casting the spell gains a 50% bonus, making the cap for the caster 24. The effect lasts 1 round per level, capping at 60 rounds. Ench Epic - Effect: Binds a massive sander to the caster's will for 1 round per 2 casterlevels. Ench Paragon - Effect: All non-boss enemies in a huge area of effect centered on the caster lose petrification immunity. - OR- Sorc:Conj Epic - Effect: Casts Bigby's Crushing Hand on every enemy within a Large radius not specifically immune to the spell, ignoring Spell Resistance. Conj Paragon - Effect: Creates a chaining damage effect on all enemies in a gargantuan area of effect, dealing 3d10 psionic damage per casterlevel. Ench Epic - Effect: Summons a Balor, straight from the Abyss, to fight for the caster for 1 round per 2 casterlevels. A real one. Ench Paragon - Effect: Grants the caster's party protection from damage kickback from enemies, halving the kickback they receive for 6 turns. - Once the actual powers the Heralds would get in this way are written down, tbh it seems like it's an oversight they don't have them yet (or not possible to implement?). Herald having sorc ench paragon seems like it would make more sense on a herald than a sorc, and make party less aggravated by heralds doing herald things. The Druid variant would make for a more supportive IWANTYOUINMYPARTY herald - spren to make tanks happy and nice synergy with Pariah, Shifters or regular Druid and the Arcane variant to provide the Herald with more self-interested tools and the KB proof to make the party less aggravated. That's how it should be imo. It would definitely not make arcane OR druid obsolete, or any other role for that matter, but would make bringing heralds along much more tempting. Thoughts? Edit: On second thought: I think the class would still be a bit meh since herald doesn't have that much synergy with these abilities that wouldn't be provided by something else often with stuff that isn't an epic or paragon (like the half-kb thing is like a bad niche immute that lasts longer) so the only very remarkable changes are the PSK:Ench and PSK:Conj from druid which have 0 synergy with herald itself... Perhaps the changes needed are something else entirely for this quasiclass. |
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Post by amano666 on Apr 9, 2017 13:21:58 GMT
I like to play the herald class, and agree that a few tweaks would make them even more fun to play. Heralds imo sacrifice the most to get the advantages they have compared to other quasi classes.
The -4 to constitution, not really being fun till level 32, no epics, the only other class that really sacrifices anything is pariah.
Don't get me wrong, I think that heralds are a well designed and interesting class, not to mention plenty powerful, but I agree with the sentiment that they lack a certain something.
Not getting epics in conj and ench might have been one of the selling points on balance for the class, but perhaps the access to a few more spells might help?
I would like to see the following become herald spells:
Murderous Mist (for herald is cast as an enchantment spell, no other changes)
- Each target in the area of effect suffers the effect of a Poison spell cast on it each round. If the target is already poisoned, Spell Resistance does not apply.
- Is only available with HG Enhanced.
Vortex of Teeth (for herald is cast as an enchantment spell, no other changes)
- Does (CL / 2)d4 Psionic damage each round for (CL / 5) rounds, to enemies in the area of the spell.
- Is only available with HG Enhanced.
Incendiary Cloud (for herald is cast as a conjuration spell, other changes below)
- Does CLd8 fire damage per round.
Deals 1/2 Fire and 1/2 Magic (or divine?) damage. Each round, enemies must make a fortitude save or suffer 2d6 constitution damage, in addition to normal effects. Cast as a Conjuration spell by Heralds.
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Post by simpetar on Apr 10, 2017 7:46:43 GMT
Incendiary Cloud (for herald is cast as a conjuration spell, other changes below) - Does CLd8 fire damage per round. Deals 1/2 Fire and 1/2 Magic (or divine?) damage. Each round, enemies must make a fortitude save or suffer 2d6 constitution damage, in addition to normal effects. Cast as a Conjuration spell by Heralds. Nice touch, the only fire damage heralds get available is Flame Arrow and Lesser/normal/Greater orb of fire that are meh. Constitution damage however would step on Murderous Mist's toes. MM respects both immunity to poison and immunity to ability decrease, but IC as you propose would directly affect ability decrease. To give an example and put it in perspective: heralds would get an ability to insta kill mariliths. Or Dustbone, or many other enemies that aren't supposed to be insta killed. Perhaps another stacking decrease is in order... say discipline? parry? listen? capped at 4*conj foci (or -20). That would be also very strong, but not directly lethal. EDIT: or perhaps (conj foci)% decrease of concealment, to help out tanks. |
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Post by chirality on Apr 11, 2017 5:55:04 GMT
heralds would get an ability to insta kill mariliths. so what? not like a more desired core class can't already do it anyway  and even underwater in gm where fire cloud wouldn't work that said, con decrease cloud isn't a good solution for herald, since ability decrease instakill is frankly a pretty lame dynamic (whether it was oversight or design that it works on short list of endgame mobs). the spell itself should prolly be given to herald (logic of "herald gets all clouds but fire cuz reasons" is kinda silly or unexplained) but it doesn't make a big difference either way, lacking fire is definitely annoying, but not nearly as annoying as having the clouds do terribly craptastic 1/2 and 1/2 split dmg types; the best fix for herald damage output would be letting them deal proper damage in the first place as for amano's other suggestions, i don't see much issue, and prolly if they existed before herald was created they would have been considered for adding as herald spells anyway? both vortex and mist make a lot of sense, not just from "zomg cloudmaster" meta logic but also just plain improvement (and mist being druid spell fits flavor too, as does school of psionic fish eh?); both are hardly overpowering (especially after hells poison nerf) but would be nice options for herald anyway, even without a special edit (maybe vortex could inflict psionic damage, to set up for zomg mordenkainen's cascade111, mist would be fine just benefiting from herald high DC) about earlier-in-thread/OP epic spell suggestions, it definitely does seem outdated in post-2000whatever meta to have caster with zero epic spells (hard to measure up as a spot); of course it's obvious that herald level reqs were designed to precisely exclude epic access, so i don't think it's as much of oversight as just bad or antiquated balancing. there's no plausible argument for heralds with conj/ench epic/paragon spells being 2stronk, but giving them free makes little sense either; one of the few things herald has going for it is huge play room with feats due quasi bonus, so if anything letting them take epics/PSKs would help breathe fresh life into pretty stagnant herald build meta and encourage more options (one of hg's traditional balancing guidelines) |
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). But the idea of a herald running around with Reclamation, Weapon Spren, or Bigby Swarm is scary. Also if the requirements for quasi were lowered to 14/14, consider that heralds would gain access to other schools as well - namely imagine full herald soup boosted by Karsus.
and even underwater in gm where fire cloud wouldn't work