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Post by manuka on Oct 1, 2020 5:10:27 GMT
Not that it makes any difference to me but I don't see why xr books are 80 and all other xrs are 70. Xr weapons are 70 and have a much bigger effect on power and run time than xr books. It would feel "nicer" if they were in line with other xr items for level requirement. Probs not worth the dev time
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Post by simpetar on Oct 1, 2020 11:40:45 GMT
Seems like a logical change but does it really matter for anyone not multiboxing? It's easier to get to 80 than to get an XR book. I beg to differ. You helped my bard on his furious quest to reach 80 and saw it first hand: I had 2 books by the time I got 80 on the first character and was well on the way to buying 3rd. There are two parts of this problem. First, the gap between 70-80 is much larger than 1-70. Second, experience reward from Limbo is pitiful, both in relation to the effort invested, and in comparison with with other "end game" runs. Players need to make a decision between getting to 80 fast, OR getting (enough) canopics fast. This type of decision should not exist IMO. It is very counter-intuitive that the hardest content to this day rewards comparable XP as a mildly simple run from well over a decade ago.
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Post by woqued on Oct 1, 2020 15:20:13 GMT
Seems like a logical change but does it really matter for anyone not multiboxing? It's easier to get to 80 than to get an XR book. I beg to differ. You helped my bard on his furious quest to reach 80 and saw it first hand: I had 2 books by the time I got 80 on the first character and was well on the way to buying 3rd. There are two parts of this problem. First, the gap between 70-80 is much larger than 1-70. Second, experience reward from Limbo is pitiful, both in relation to the effort invested, and in comparison with with other "end game" runs. Players need to make a decision between getting to 80 fast, OR getting (enough) canopics fast. This type of decision should not exist IMO. It is very counter-intuitive that the hardest content to this day rewards comparable XP as a mildly simple run from well over a decade ago. You are quoting a post before several Canopic droprate buffs, but yes, now I would also agree. In that climate, I did not - limbo was a harder run and yielded less canopics.
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Post by Pulpo on Oct 1, 2020 18:01:54 GMT
I am not sure what the workload requirement is to make this happen but I will say that it is almost a punishment getting an XR race that you want to box tbh. I play ALOT and have yet to mark any one of my accounts with an XR race book I have because the on I want it on isnt 80. I cant imagine the complexity of attempting to make a game with longevity and balance, however, I think an XR race should afford options not enforce more gaming. 75 is nothing to sneeze at and I feel is more reasonable than 80 but that is just my 2c, and yes its jaded, tainted, and partial as are all opinions.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 2, 2020 2:49:48 GMT
Is there any in-game or game-mechanic benefit to this change? Meaning: will it solve a problem or fill a pressing need?
I only ask because the main arguments seem to be more about convenience than anything else - I'm not discounting them, mind you, just making an observation.
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Post by woqued on Oct 2, 2020 8:36:13 GMT
Is there any in-game or game-mechanic benefit to this change? Meaning: will it solve a problem or fill a pressing need? I only ask because the main arguments seem to be more about convenience than anything else - I'm not discounting them, mind you, just making an observation. Irking convenience and inconsistency that doesn't align with other XRs and one of the main draws of HG - the subrace variance and character buildup. Combined with double book requirement, not being able to make your new character at 70 to start over instead being forced to continue past 70 towards 80 seems unfairly punishing. You have to "finish" your soon-to-be-suboptimal character before you get to make new ones with the subraces you attain, and to improve that one further you have to pay double. A large part of the fun is making new chars when you get the potential to, but just getting book isn't enough but lvl 80 as a arbitrarily-feeling xp requirement. Example: Ok, so you found a Bard sub. To make use of it, you gotta level your bard to 80 (assuming it's your main char, like in Simps case). But why would you make another bard? You'd rather stop at 70 and make a new bard from the XR sub at this point, and have two separate bards. The positive side-effect of this is that the bard player may be willing to trade the bard sub for something else, and upon reaching 80 they won't make a bard, instead trade with another player for a, say, sorc/theurge/tank sub and make one of those. In a way, incentivizes trading and toon variance I guess. But it does kinda feel bad man. You'd like to start working on that, but you can't because it's 80. It is a long way to 80 after all, a rather large time investment. As in my completely necroed quote from 2017 where I did say it was a logical change but in that climate when limbo drops didn't work, mobs were harder, loot/cano yields were miniscule, secrets not implemented and there were at best 2 groups running Limbo at all and p2s run once in a blue moon... Didn't find it important. But now? With a influx of new players, it seems like a perfectly reasonable necro of this idea. I just wish these people actually thought it out and typed it down without it bein "frickin" chewed for them. Sidenote: I think tagging p2hard should still enable XR subrace reincarnation without doublecost to alleviate this burden but that's besides the scope of this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 12:14:24 GMT
It works against one of HGs biggest appeals. And without a targeted XR gamble, you can end up like a friend of mine and be over 60 XR books in, and still need ONE copy of the thing you want. And that doesn’t even speak to two... it’s a huge problem. It isn’t just convenience.
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Post by KnightErrant on Oct 2, 2020 12:52:19 GMT
It works against one of HGs biggest appeals. And without a targeted XR gamble, you can end up like a friend of mine and be over 60 XR books in, and still need ONE copy of the thing you want. And that doesn’t even speak to two... it’s a huge problem. It isn’t just convenience. To me this seems like a perfect example of the HG economy working brilliantly, one of the richest players on the server actually needs things still! Imagine the delight of being a non-rich player and having said item/s and being able to trade them for enough high end loot that you feel like you won the lottery and the rich player getting the long sought-after/elusive thing they need... .02 KE.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 13:02:33 GMT
There are plenty of needs. For that player and others. But the fact you can go 60+ books and not have what you need, when it’s what you want? That’s awful. What that means is for most people they’d never get it... that isn’t the system working for anyone.
Right now? At the BUR tier you can get what you want and / or need. It’s nowhere like that for XR. And the total length of the content being available / total runs done is only one piece of that system.
Adjusting the XR book level and bringing it in line with every other XR only stimulates the growth of the trading environment and economy. It also stimulates the excitement and growth of players who feel like they can do the runs and actually use and obtain the rewards they want. As previously mentioned subraces are a huge draw.
As also mentioned limbo gives pitiful experience. And I can very comfortably say that if you take a toon from scratch, go x7 Demi, x5 abyss, and do all the things. You’ll end of woefully short on the XP train to 80. And that’s even with allocating the bulk of those cycles to XP weekends! The level 80 XP is in a good place. Doesn’t need to change.
Ultimately what is needed is:
1) Bring XR books in line with other XRs and readable at 70. 2) Bump Limbo XP a lot, and also adjust Mechanus to be in line with the new Limbo.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 13:32:36 GMT
If you’re having to go ages without stuff, with how HG has created itself with the races and quasi classes. Exorbitant amounts of time getting a book you want isn’t it. It’s gearing up the next toon or maximizing the toon. For someone who doesn’t have the reps in to get the books? It’s a different story. For several of the runners in my group? The reps are there. And all that work and look how often the player is around now? It gets defeating. It’s the opposite end of the spectrum but still a problem.
That’s a derail though. Even with that problem, XRs readable at 70 versus 80 would allow them to truly only need one book after such a terrible experience getting the first. The level needs to change.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 2, 2020 14:25:37 GMT
It works against one of HGs biggest appeals. And without a targeted XR gamble, you can end up like a friend of mine and be over 60 XR books in, and still need ONE copy of the thing you want. And that doesn’t even speak to two... it’s a huge problem. It isn’t just convenience. To me this seems like a perfect example of the HG economy working brilliantly, one of the richest players on the server actually needs things still! Imagine the delight of being a non-rich player and having said item/s and being able to trade them for enough high end loot that you feel like you won the lottery and the rich player getting the long sought-after/elusive thing they need... .02 KE. Yeah, I'd have to agree....60 XR books but don't have the second copy of the one you really want so you can reincarnate into a more uber version of the toons that got those books in the first place isn't the most compelling argument imho. Moreover, it seems that the problem can be solved by bumping xp and making it faster to reach 80, which also has nothing to do with game play or mechanics. Don't get me wrong: as a person with limited playing time I TOTALLY get the convenience factor and I'm not opposed to the idea. Still, while this probably won't "break" anything, it's hard to see it as essential or necessary...just a matter or preference.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 15:03:07 GMT
To clarify... 60 books and the FIRST copy hasn't been obtained. I typed up a response, realized I had some good points but also re-mentioned stuff a lot. So, here is my hopefully better reply.
The present system does "break" things. When one of the biggest draws of Higher Ground is subraces, quasiclasses, and characters this breaks Higher Ground. When a system in place works counter to one of the biggest reasons people come to play here? That is a problem. When you're investing so much time, resources, and runs into a character and then ultimately can't even leverage those benefits of all that work for months or years? That is a problem.
Look at the number of people who have run Limbo since release relative to the total number of players who are in the "end-game" portion of Higher Ground since the release of Limbo. It's still a pretty small group. We have a larger player base than we have had in years. We want to fuel these players to the gems that we sell ourselves on and help people get there.
Adjusting the Level requirement to USE the book doesn't alter the work required to OBTAIN the book. It preserves the end-game progression with Hell and Abyss being a two pronged system both fueling your character with the resources needed to be successful in Paragon areas. It requires players to do research, to use the wiki, the forums, their fellow companions and members of the community.
Level 80 for a lot of people is a lofty, lofty goal. Lots of players don't have hours everyday to grind. Limbo XP rewards is a problem. XP in Limbo should be adjusted but nowhere else. End-game runs should fuel players getting to the end-game. Giving players the opportunity to use their rewards which take a lot of work to get in the first place helps fuel that. Especially when most players won't be getting two copies anytime soon, or potentially ever, and they have to restart, redoing the grind to take advantage of the all the work. (Shelving a maxed out abyss, hell, XP, and tagged character feels really, really bad).
This change helps support everyone, even those with less time, because it makes more books valuable to more people. This change supports trading books, it supports the distribution of them. I sold an XR book to a player for 20 Thids runs worth of loot. While some may scoff at that, it got a player who had no toons remotely close to the run an XR book (it then took him several months of playing to even get the XP needed to use it). When more players feel like something is within reach, they'll strive for it. We currently have one of our biggest draws locked behind the most significant barrier. A barrier that also is inconsistent with the rest of the loot tier.
I've been accused (rightfully so) of just bumping threads, or requesting changes, or making a complaint without information or data. I have taken the time on this. There are very tangible gains that can be realized across the spectrum of players for the community by making this change. Everyone wins. It also keeps in line with existing precedent of loot progression. It also doesn't reduce the work involved to obtain something which should take work to get.
Let's give everyone a win.
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