Is it really THAT hard to play a caster? Cause I don't think it is. Yes, you got some more buttons. Not that many. And you can sit back there and insta-kill big groups of mobs with just one of those buttons.
I'd replace "hard to play" with "taking more time to learn how to manage many options (generally an overwhelming amount of options, for a new player)", and "taking until deeper into the game to learn the importance of managing those options". Imo it's not about black/white "easy or hard to play", it's about the fact that (until later in the game, when swapping weapons and gearing properly becomes extremely important for good performance) tanks simply have less/few options, and casters have a plethora of options.
I don't think on a simple "difficulty to play" scale there's such a huge difference ultimately (what early differences there are tend to even out, keep reading to see why). Rote memorization on basic level seems lot more for caster, as they "need" to learn both damage types and instakills, while tank only "needs" to learn damage types, but make no mistake: if a tank doesn't know the same information, she won't perform properly--tank may not "need" to know what mob takes what instakill from what caster, but not knowing it means you fail when you focus on caster-trash-disposal mob; and by the same token, a caster may only "need" to know which of her instakills work on what, but not knowing which other classes' instakills work on what results in a fail as well.
It's been said plenty by vets and "vets" alike (
) that actually playing a tank well (later in the game) has a high learning curve of its own, and failing to learn has harsh consequences. Higher curve than caster? Nah, but nonetheless, in many vets' experience (of watching people FAIL at playing tanks) there *is* a difficulty/need to learn when it comes playing tanks. Imo this is, again, all about managing options and making efficient cost decisions in combat, and while casters right from start have so many options that it's immediately obvious to a new player that they have a ton of spells to learn how to deploy effectively, tanks take a lot longer to develop to the point that it's obvious to a new player that they have some studying/learning to do in order to get the job done without being yelled at by the party (let alone impressing the party). As above, they really need to learn how to play a caster to play a tank well (this isn't a joke, or trick, or anti-tank thing, it's just a fact, and NEEDS to be digested eventually, which is yet another reason why you see "play a caster
" @ new players.
Some things casters need to learn (and some like damage types/instakill vulns even apparent early on vs idiotic PoA L20 mobs):
--What damage type is mob outright immune to
--What instakill/disable is mob outright immune to
--What damage types work on that mob, and better yet, which is the best to se
--What instakill/disable types work on that mob, and better yet, if there's multiple options, which is the best
--When should you disable instead of damage/try instakill*
--When should you instakill instead of damage/try disable*
--Mechanical skills like positioning, using combat casting, when to GS/GV, radial menu rightclick for something not on quickbar
--When to deploy (and not deploy) epics
--What spells to memorize
--How to set up quickbars/voicebinds for optimal performance
*this is often dependant on how "rest of party(aka the other caster classes&tanks, if/when present) can handle mobs
Some things tanks need to learn (and many don't become apparent until late in the game; proper damage types becomes apparent vs L30+ tag bosses)
--What damage type is mob outright immune to
--What damage types work, better yet which is the best one to use
--Mob targeting priority chain (aka in given spawn go for this 1st, that 2nd, that 3rd, that ignore, etc->adapt to party/circumstance)*
--Which mob is vulnerable to crits but can be dealt with more efficiently by tank than caster (vs vulnerable to crit but dealt with better by caster)*
--What mobs should not be hit
--What mobs heal on what type
--How to craft weapons (and without having a caster to help farm yourself some, you may not have many options to craft
)
--How to choose which weapons to use for given run and ask buffs for in pre-run "lobby" (workshop)
--How to change gear setup on a per-run basis to ensure certain immunities/requirements are met (casters need to learn this too ofc, but bit more leeway given to them; for tanks it's absolute must)
*dependent on learning how casters/your party operate
ofc some of these (and some of the most important ones, like learning how to properly gear, learning how party works and adapting to the circumstance) overlap, and there's other "universal hg skills" that overlap too, like using p2/support abilities when needed, spawn trigger management, and "what is my job"
Rangers I've seen insta-kill too. For some reason meleers can't. Even dev crit is disabled. Would it hurt so much if meleers could dev crit too?
Well, to be argumentative/derail: meleers can
assassins and melee rangers
It's not even a case of "roles", in my opinion. Those insta-killing machines sitting in the back actually have the same or better defenses than a meleer, in terms of AC and immunities.
Very true in some ways, but as I circled around in the previous post, imo this is a very good thing:
-It makes casters far more useful for new player than tanks, because of those buffs
-Which helps dissuade the "start on a tank, not a caster" tendency
-Which should help newbie earn their gear (hey, look, you can collect gear for future tank while learning a caster ^^ )
-Which hopefully produces more desire to play caster by newbies
-Which hopefully produces new players that are end-game ready
Tanks are useful in this game, in fact the ability you're asking for (something available to tanks, to buff dmg done by casters) is already implemented, because if a tank is doing its job keeping enemies away from casters the latter can spam dmg instead of running/healing;
the problem is that a badly geared tank is A LOT more fragile than a badly geared caster (generally speaking, a buff casted by a newbie has the same effectiveness of the same buff casted by a rich boy), and a tank using wrong/uncrafted weapons is going to kill at so slow rate that monsters will be free to roam over the casters.
Emphasis added for specifically the "caster buff" thing, but tbh try to digest entire quote, it's golden wisdom
I'm not saying they don't deserve love, I find it funny how defensive everyone gets and how unpopular this opinion is, but it's a bit ridiculous as it is.
You might mistake "defensive" or "overprotective/apologist of game's flaws" for "trying to be helpful and insist you understand the pros/cons". It's of no benefit for the game in the long run to defend broken mechanics (immediate benefit of abusing broken stuff for a given player, but that's nature of any game ofc), but It's of extreme benefit for us to try ensuring fresh generations of HGers can enjoy the game and perform well. Theres broken parts of HG that rear their ugly heads, but usually ppl decry them, not defend them. One of my favorite lines of argument for "caster vs tank" or "need of core" complaints is that it's metagame/OP learning: these things are designed to be strong, so take advantage of it. People complain alot about how "cores are needed" but I retort with "cmon, it's literally 4 classes, how is that asking a lot
". People complain about how core favoritism, but I look at it like "here's a gift to the player: play this and the game is easy". It's not that we want to recommend you to play things that are boring and cookie-cutter, and stifle creativity/novelty. We just want to recommend you to play things that are (for better or worse) an inherent part of the game's design. Casters (aka cores) are not a tacked-on thing that's OP by chance; they're an inseperable part of the fabric of the game itself, on a deep level.
If anything, the risk-reward argument should mean meleers get more for being up there.
By LLs, let alone endgame, casters OP-seeming buffs->"zomg defenses better thank a tank" becomes more like "wow, good thing i have those defensive buffs, I can barely survive if I screw up", rather than "I'm so OP i can tank better than a tank". In some cases it's true, but consider that mobs are designed to be so brutal that if those buffs didn't exist, casters would be nearly impossible to play; properly-built/geared/played tank will have far better defense than most casters, simply because their class features/gear are designed to help them TANK, and mobs are designed to vanquish anything that fails to meet XYZ criteria (stat checks, crit immunity, saves, whatever), and tanks will have more of these criteria met as a default.
Looking at spell buffs like EV or Gate, it seems like on paper omg that caster is godly invincible, but this is only true with proper playing; in Hells+ many casters can (and will) die in a round or 2 of melee->being disabled/inflicted vs even a trash mob, simply because they lack many pieces of the "tank survival puzzle" (and have only the few pieces their class gives them, which allows enough survival to perform their job vs very very deadly spawns); a sorc with 85% (effective 72) might dodge many attacks, but low hp pool and fragility vs crits means they'll die in a few landed attacks or disable; a cleric with insane gate soak still isn't going to last long once dominated/kd (and no GV to reposition); a druid with huge AC loses it with just a split-second moment of flatfoot (and turtle/fos gains invincibility in exchange for mobility); and as a general rule casters are very vulnerable to physical stat check disables; any lacking FoS is extremely vulnerable to kd, and those that have FoS are vulnerable to dex domination.
Risk-reward argument means that meleers often do get more, just in different ways: the payoff lends itself in the form of "sometimes i'll play a core while mates play tanks, and sometimes i'll play a tank while mates play core", which is something people often struggle with understanding. Less need to rest, less need to "manage options", less need to be robotically-attentive to spells cast: just attend to "tanking/damaging properly". The reward is a far less-stressful block of time spent playing vs a caster (in general). There's no question: playing a caster at peak performance is draining and stressful, while playing a tank at peak performance tends to be far less physical/mental "work" (lot less clicking, lot more adapting/watching casters play vs "carrying" the run--full circle on "i'll play tank this run while you play core, i'll play core next run while you play tank").