Poor Tanks and Wraps

[woqued]

This silly item - aka the azz3 cloak Wrap of the Dark Prince  - is a monstrosity. It makes lesser tanks way too inferior to the top tier tanks and makes the top tier tanks even better hiding behind this inequality incarnate worn garment. On top of that some classes like Rogues are pretty horrible offensively until they get their hands on this item, that is gatelocked behind Azzagrat part 3 and makes playing something like a pure damage rogue until then fairly miserable. 

Suggestion: turn the item into a token that is in your inventory with three uses per day for +1 extra attack. Yes this makes tanks more tanky without losing the defense. It would also be limited to having just one per character and require more resting or not dying instead of just swapping new cloaks in if you're rich enough (I am - this would be a self-nerf offensively for me, buff defensively). Grant these 1st tier BAB bonuses to the 2nd tier citizens such as pure Monks, Rogues and Shadowdancers upon reaching Legendary Levels in terms of attacks. They're simply inferior and pigeonholed into wearing the cloak.

Better ideas? Wrap should be changed or have more options similar to it available for tanks/archers.

Alternatively, we could have a lowbie item variant of this:

Wrap of the Shady Dude:
8% phys immunities
Immunity: Knockdown
Same divine power ability as the Wrap of the Dark Prince

- Drops from the Immortal or some other fancy friend.

- This way we'll still be pigeonholed into wearing the nifty cloaks, but there would be a way for the lesser folk (the ones mentioned earlier like pure rogues) to have a decent amount of attacks. 

[desocupado]

wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Plate_of_Uxan_Uldorath

[Deleted]

I think that the item is cool enough for tanks, though as you point out the main issue is it’s rarity - very easy for skilled multi-boxers to farm, almost impossible to acquire for the average player.

I think that the most time-effective solution would be to go with your ‘Wrap of the Shady Dude’, stick it in some under-run LL run and we’re good to go!

Edit: Just re-read your post, dropping from the Immortal is pretty cool. Would greatly increase the incentive of shackling to join those runs (or just taking new toons to Immortality).

[chirality]

Dec 7, 2017 0:06:47 GMT desocupado said:

wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Plate_of_Uxan_Uldorath

Some prime wrap candidates lack
Heay prof, which is why uxan plate (while still being very powerful for what it is, already used for years as poor man's wrap) is a lot less desirable, and ofc just cloak vs. Armor slot period is lot easier on kitting period. Op idea addresses issue of poor man wrap for ppl like rogue that already found real wrap cloak slot to be ideal (or close enuff anyway)

[woqued]

Re-opening and bumping this discussion a little bit as result of 40-60 item thread.

I don't think tanks do too much damage even with wraps. I do think tanks that can not benefit from Wraps are underwhelming compared to those with Wraps, and not having one (or multiple) is a huge difference. A common example I've used in the past is pure Rogues - they are completely miserable without the item. As such, I would not advocate for any change that involves removing/nerfing wrap Without adding that the capability to get the Divine Power buff in some other way to make up for this. It is already a semi-weak item outside the effect it provides defensively so making it even less defensive doesn't seem to be the answer (to me anyway).

My beef is with the effect being provided so late, only in cloak slot and only to some classes (stacking issues).

This could be altered by
1. adding earlier and/or more variants of the item
2. adding items that do not require an item slot to cast the buff (Quite significant buff to all tanks capable of benefiting from said power, probably too much not to sacrifice some defences for it).
3. changing classes/characters to need the said item power less

Just some thoughts. Feel free to chime in.

[manuka]

There are limbo p2 gloves with a extra attack?

[woqued]

Jan 7, 2018 0:16:49 GMT manuka said:

There are limbo p2 gloves with a extra attack?

Divine power or extra attack? Stacking mechanic with other stuff? Relevant stuff to know, I never got the gloves and never tested so not sure. Divine Power is superior to stuff that hasn't splashed/isn't T1 BAB classes, extra attacks are superior to Div Power for classes whose extra attacks don't stack with div power but do stack with extra attacks. I'm not 100% savvy on the stacking mechanics on extra attacks across various classes though. 

Also, doesn't help with the endgame runner / newer player paradigm which is simply overly magnified with these types of items - but seems to point towards the choice to add more items of this type into the game. Simple solution is to add a lowbie variant or two. 

[Deleted]

AFAIK the P2-Hard gloves (Fracas) are essentially Toyshop Boots on an average glove slot. My understanding is that they don't stack with Divine Power/Tensers (but I have not personally tested).

I like Wrap's current position in the metagame, but I agree that there should be more accessible alternatives. I am happy with the concept of 'Wrap of the Shady Dude', though arguably it could have its stats reduced a bit to compensate for its ease of access (if making it a solo-able LL set), to let the real P3 version retain its value. I think an LL variant would be appropriate even as a naked cloak with CL 50 Divine Power 2x/day.

Or as mentioned earlier in the thread, dropping from the Immortal would be interesting and improve frequency of that run (and be a genuine incentive for helpers to shackle for it).

[FunkySwerve]

Since the posts in this thread are missing the mark by a wide margin, with the OP coming the closest, try this. First, consider the problems the OP mentions:

Dec 6, 2017 23:00:02 GMT woqued said:

This silly item - aka the azz3 cloak Wrap of the Dark Prince  - is a monstrosity. It makes lesser tanks way too inferior to the top tier tanks and makes the top tier tanks even better hiding behind this inequality incarnate worn garment. On top of that some classes like Rogues are pretty horrible offensively until they get their hands on this item,

Then try to spell out for yourself why anything worn so ubiquitously is inherently problematic. There are a few reasons, implicating gear reliance/power, class balance, and loot utility.

[thoughtful pause here]





The token idea comes closest to dealing the the loot utility issues, but little for the others. Another possibilty is the introduction of a 'tier 1 ab' feat for tier 2 classes, but that leaves other issues. Brainstorming welcome.

Funky

[woqued]

Jan 7, 2018 5:01:48 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Since the posts in this thread are missing the mark by a wide margin, with the OP coming the closest, try this. First, consider the problems the OP mentions:

Dec 6, 2017 23:00:02 GMT woqued said:

This silly item - aka the azz3 cloak Wrap of the Dark Prince  - is a monstrosity. It makes lesser tanks way too inferior to the top tier tanks and makes the top tier tanks even better hiding behind this inequality incarnate worn garment. On top of that some classes like Rogues are pretty horrible offensively until they get their hands on this item,

Then try to spell out for yourself why anything worn so ubiquitously is inherently problematic. There are a few reasons, implicating gear reliance/power, class balance, and loot utility.

[thoughtful pause here]





The token idea comes closest to dealing the the loot utility issues, but little for the others. Another possibilty is the introduction of a 'tier 1 ab' feat for tier 2 classes, but that leaves other issues. Brainstorming welcome.

Funky

I think a decent combination effort would be a book drop to grant that tier 1 ab status similar to caster feat books / shifter feat books/ so forth and changing current wrap meta into book+token one. I don't think it would break the power balance, except nerf stuff like 4 paladin splash in favour of 1 paladin splash and ignore the need to take those 4-5 ftr/pal/bg/.. levels pre-20 instead of allowing to take them post-20. Making it a feat would be -1 LL/PL feat to all 2nd tier classes, making them further 2nd tier in that regard which I don't feel is warranted balance-wise. 

Strong potential benefit would fall on Battlecleric, Stormlord, Rogue, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Monk(Pure, likely to affect less otherwise since mixing with the t1 combat classes is so strong and taking them early/later is not a huge difference), and tank bards. Looks like a nice list of tanks in need of buff with exception of Battlecleric and arguably Monk but the current Monks wouldn't care at all, they'd still go fighter/wm/pal/harper in some variation, not a huge change for them but would make the largely inferior pure monks less inferior (but they would still likely be quite inferior). 

"Nerfing wrap" in any way would be a hit on all tanks except the caster tanks who use similar powers. It would probably change class balance to favour those more - I think if wrap was severely nerfed and book was introduced BC and perhaps Stormlord and haste caster Warchanter / Mass Haste casting mages/bards to support (which we already love) might have a good time compared to some of the other classes, unless a token option for extra attacks to compete would be added. Harper Scout would also start to feel somewhat mandatory if wrap is no longer an option and replacement is not added. It's also one of those things where we lose something we are accustomed to having making the fewer attacks per round feel super lame after experiencing the good life. 

Sidenote: I also can't help but feel like Limbo mob durability has been balanced around tanks having wrap-infused tier damage - if we never had wraps, Limbo mobs would have been insanely way too sturdy to begin with, even more so than they were before some changes - so I feel like some kind of replacement would have to be in order there no matter what, but I could be wrong of course - maybe Warchanters become core not instead of but alongside bards! They'd run out of spells though and increase spawnsize and bludgeoning sucks vs slaads /derail. 

Book vs Feat comparison to reach t1 bab: adding feat to take would make it essentially mandatory for all those Pure weaklings, meaning -1 feat for LL / PL - they aren't strong enough to deserve a -1 important feat from get go in build planning compared to current tier 1 bab tanks, hence book suggestion over the feat one. 

Random brainstorming delivered. 

Edit extra blabber:

For what it's worth, I think build-altering, extremely strong and hugely QoL improving things would be better served as elements akin to the mage books from Arcane Academy / Ssithraks - part of the mandatory progression and fairly early on in a characters life - or as Tag rewards like Demigodhood, so you aren't reliant on luck for a crucial element to a character, nor block the item slot in question for that power boost.

As such tokens and books like this would do well to drop in the 30-60 level range with either guaranteed drop at end similar to Shifter books, mage books or as simply tag reward like vestiges. Similar service would do well for the Wrap power instead of being a cloak so that (all) other items in game won't be rendered useless upon reaching that point in the game for that character.  I think tokens for power to affect balance would do well to be received as tag reward for a certain trial completed, similar to Pelor Mote - downside of Pelor mote is the same as the Wrap in that it blocks the mote slot from everything else similarly to the wrap from Abyss which is probably something to avoid, and as such the benefits of that would also be well served in token-form that you can alter for your character Shapestrong token style or similarly to stat artifacts changeable only with reincarnation. 

[Deleted]

Not really any specific suggestions here, but just to add some analysis to the discussion... Wrap balance is complicated to discuss because it has multiple effects. Let's break it down:

Effect #1 - Adds +1 attack (for non-Divine Power/Tenser casters);
At the end of the day, this is why Wrap is so desirable to use for combat classes. It's a free attack which boosts your damage output, so not using it thus reduces your damage from what it could be. 

Effect #2 - If you have 3 1/1 BAB classes, improves your LBAB to T1;
As far as Wrap-users go, this provides a +3 AB boost to Assassin/XDD/Non-Pure Rogue/Shadowdancer, and +6 AB to Arcane Archers. This is usually not game-breaking; Assassins max their primary stat, XDDs get bonus STR, Rogues get bonus AB from Opportunist and Arcane Archers already have stellar AB. Shadowdancers are the worst off in this category (and in some other categories too  )  , but technically they get a short-term AB boost from Shadowstep as well. 

Effect #3 - If you have less than 16 Pre-Epic BAB, you gain attacks as though you had 16 Pre-Epic BAB;
Most combat builds are able to take splash classes to hit 16 Pre-Epic BAB (and are better off doing so), so this often has no impact. The notable exception is the Pure Rogue, who by definition will only have 15 Pre-Epic BAB and thus gains a second bonus attack from Wrap (though they miss out on the LBAB bonus from Effect #2 in the process).

-----

A feat which boosts LBAB to T1 addresses Effect #2, which is not the real issue. I'm not sure if the Pre-Epic BAB limit is able to be changed, but I also think that it is practically a non-issue with the exception of Pure Rogue. A potential fix to that might be to give Rogue's their 'Ignore Sneak Immunity' ability at Level 35 instead of 40. 

The real 'problem' with Wrap is the bonus attack *combined* with the scarcity of the item. It is a must-have item which has a 1/3 chance of dropping from an Abyss P3 run, and is thus out of reach for most of the server and creates a rift between the rich and the poor; the rich get a bonus attack and the poor don't. The two 'solutions' are that either everyone should get it, or no one should.

As was already mentioned in this thread, the issue here is that in Pre-Limbo areas tanks are often considered unimportant and underwhelming, and in Limbo areas tanks are already having difficulty breaking through mob defences. So taking the 'no one should get the bonus attack' approach is a direct nerf to these character archetypes, and thus makes troubled classes even worse off. For that reason, I prefer the 'everyone should get the bonus attack' solution and that's why I favour having more accessible CL 50 Divine Power items (along the lines of 'Wrap of the Shady Dude') being added as Set LL drops.

[sabregirl]

Jan 7, 2018 13:25:13 GMT @ssj2poliwhirl said:

A feat which boosts LBAB to T1 addresses Effect #2, which is not the real issue. I'm not sure if the Pre-Epic BAB limit is able to be changed, but I also think that it is practically a non-issue with the exception of Pure Rogue. A potential fix to that might be to give Rogue's their 'Ignore Sneak Immunity' ability at Level 35 instead of 40. 

The real 'problem' with Wrap is the bonus attack *combined* with the scarcity of the item. It is a must-have item which has a 1/3 chance of dropping from an Abyss P3 run, and is thus out of reach for most of the server and creates a rift between the rich and the poor; the rich get a bonus attack and the poor don't. The two 'solutions' are that either everyone should get it, or no one should.

As was already mentioned in this thread, the issue here is that in Pre-Limbo areas tanks are often considered unimportant and underwhelming, and in Limbo areas tanks are already having difficulty breaking through mob defences. So taking the 'no one should get the bonus attack' approach is a direct nerf to these character archetypes, and thus makes troubled classes even worse off. For that reason, I prefer the 'everyone should get the bonus attack' solution and that's why I favour having more accessible CL 50 Divine Power items (along the lines of 'Wrap of the Shady Dude') being added as Set LL drops.

If the real problem is the bonus attack, why isn't everyone using toyshop boots until they get a wrap?



That one is not even a buff that wears off . . .

or is it the fact that the prince wrap stacks with harper scout, partly, while toyshop boots do not? Is it desire for breach boots?

As far as limbo mob sturdiness, I'm not sure how many tanks in limbo are actually using XR weapons, which may change some of these dynamics.

-S

[woqued]

Jan 7, 2018 15:21:28 GMT sabregirl said:

Jan 7, 2018 13:25:13 GMT @ssj2poliwhirl said:

A feat which boosts LBAB to T1 addresses Effect #2, which is not the real issue. I'm not sure if the Pre-Epic BAB limit is able to be changed, but I also think that it is practically a non-issue with the exception of Pure Rogue. A potential fix to that might be to give Rogue's their 'Ignore Sneak Immunity' ability at Level 35 instead of 40. 

The real 'problem' with Wrap is the bonus attack *combined* with the scarcity of the item. It is a must-have item which has a 1/3 chance of dropping from an Abyss P3 run, and is thus out of reach for most of the server and creates a rift between the rich and the poor; the rich get a bonus attack and the poor don't. The two 'solutions' are that either everyone should get it, or no one should.

As was already mentioned in this thread, the issue here is that in Pre-Limbo areas tanks are often considered unimportant and underwhelming, and in Limbo areas tanks are already having difficulty breaking through mob defences. So taking the 'no one should get the bonus attack' approach is a direct nerf to these character archetypes, and thus makes troubled classes even worse off. For that reason, I prefer the 'everyone should get the bonus attack' solution and that's why I favour having more accessible CL 50 Divine Power items (along the lines of 'Wrap of the Shady Dude') being added as Set LL drops.

If the real problem is the bonus attack, why isn't everyone using toyshop boots until they get a wrap?

That one is not even a buff that wears off . . .

or is it the fact that the prince wrap stacks with harper scout, partly, while toyshop boots do not? Is it desire for breach boots?

As far as limbo mob sturdiness, I'm not sure how many tanks in limbo are actually using XR weapons, which may change some of these dynamics.

-S

It is as you say. Toyshop boots stacking issues // can't be worn with harper boots, they can't be used with breach boots, they're worse defensively worse, and only 1 use per day is crucial. It's not a feasible option really when it's that weak. (Consider breach cloak from Abyss is more or less unusable and BUR tier breach boots are super awesome, for some slot comparison). I tried using it in the past but it's too cumbersome with just the 1 use, any 1 roll ends it and you sacrifice an entire slot completely for it. Making Wrap have only 1 charge (or honestly, even 2) and not be swappable for other wraps would kill the item, unusable instantly or prompt cumbersome behaviour in niche situations on players part. Too low uptime; harper scout splash is also being slowly abandoned in favour of other things because the duration and only 2 charges is too weak in Limbo pt2 - toyshop boots were in far worse situation long before that even for players in easier and/or shorter runs. 

XR weapons might change it, but suggesting that to deal with the first and only paragon area in existence properly you'd provide XR weapons as the answer when there are like four people even in position to use XR weapons after years of farming is crazy talk. It may end up changing the dynamic for the richest cream of the crop in the long run - which may be the only ones running Limbo what do I know. But sounds odd for this particular balance discussion, unless significant other changes are made to the XR weapons and their acquisition / crafting. Consider any XR wep with acid sucks for Limbo pt2 and any XR wep without slashing is suboptimal for pt2, odds of getting a suitable one for this purpose is rather small for a person looking at "Hey, can I succeed at tanking in this Limbo pt2 run? Oh, I need a non-acid potentially slashing XR weapon to deliver? Hmm!"

@poli: while that meta works fine (with lower level alternatives, balance wise) it also kills cloak gaming for non-caster tanks. From devving pov it's not an ideal situation. Good analysis though! I'd like to say evening out the LBAB and Rogues with providing them with the "T1 class status" wouldn't make any of them OP, just punish people less for making different types of builds and even out the wrap disparity. Is there a negative if such a change was made is the question to me. Rogues would probably reach super top tier tank status if Rogue sneak immunity penetration was moved to 35 - 35 rog 4 ftr 1 monk or paladin build or 35 rog 5 harper build would look pretty broken to me on paper at quick glance. 

[chirality]

i never thought i would think (let alone say) this, but honestly, just making tanks all have full bab would be a great place to start, and tbh just give listen to all of them too.

starting with listen cuz it's offtopic: it's just the divine tanks that lack; more classes have listen than don't, and with demonstrated power/popularity/prevalence of non-divine tanks, it's not easy to argue that they're so strong vs everything else in contemporary meta that lacking listen is a good balance factor. especially when considering that the desire for LSA listen promotes little good feeling and a lot of unhappiness:
--hurts subrace diversity by pushing to a tiny handful of viable subraces
--pisses on dev work by making races like cambion very poorly thought of, despite best intentions of the builders i'm sure
--hurts newb vs vet power paradigm by making viable divine tank largely reserved for mid-to-high PL having double-demi/BUR holders
--choosing to forgo lsa listen only pushes for an even greater reliance on PLs/demis/gear to have competitive skillmod; if half-elf divine tank is only really coming into their own w/ bur DD, then lsa-listen-lacking divine tank is really a richboy reinc project
--which is just another thing helping push the "op PL toons in L60 zones" problem
___________________________________________________
back ontopic @ wrap/BAB:

as for t1vst2 (pre-epic) BAB, i think it's simply unfitting for hg, when all it basically does is "force" these observations:
--16bab@L20 meta (universal in nwn ofc, not so much in pnp where it was meant for; but potential 3-attack 3/4 builds with class benefits like defense, utility, rp, weighed lot less in hg super-creeped meta)
--demand for wrap
--invalidating many class combos outright at worst (anything that doesn't manage to hit the 4 base attack minmax build meta--least worrisome of the issues, but it sure would be cool to have 3 t2 bab classes as a legit option), or reserving for wrap-users at best.
--on the "plus side" it "creates diversity" by reducing ab, left for player to deal with by either a) shifting build numbers around or b) simply not caring due PL powercreep/low ACs making far less important than it could be

the whole system feels clunky and idiosyncratic compared to games with various classic concept classes (frontline warrior vs sneaky rogue vs tanky defender for example) that don't revolve around a "roll to land attack" system, their offensive power is variated more by features/skills/specials, not "can they hit the enemy, and how many times per given time unit", which is the end-all metric of hg tank power. off-topic to compare hg to non-dnd based games, but at this point it really is a factor in what people do with their time

again, i never thought i'd say this, as it's such a classic part of 3e/d20/nwn and such a fitting concept, but i just make everyone full bab and listen, and tbh let's throw in tumble, disc and parry while at it and let the balance/build variation work itself out from there...imo the diversity created by d20 bab/class skill system is really just an illusion on HG, playing a rotating game of "this class has this but lacks this, that class has this and that but lacks that and that" which you fill in the holes by taking feats anyway, skipping on any of the "required skills" or 4 base attacks is not really a meaningful option or choice, it's just rearranging stuff in different ways, with ultimate outcome being some marginally-noticeable points of AB difference.

impact?
--divine tanks get listen but already have full bab
--3/4 tanks get full bab but already have listen
--those with both gets no buff (and in relation, an effective "nerf") but considering these are the most heavily-customized golden children (ranger, barb, fighter), they can suck it up

is there a potential issue with homogenization? i don't think so tbh. i think this basically would breathe new life into a stale meta and fix some glaring unhappy problems (LSA listen stinks, crappy subraces, op pharlan, t2 bab classes MUST TAKE t1 splash, wrap issue)

there's the lbab progression to create "diversity"/impact in final ab than pre-epic bab (main thing it does it 3 vs 4 attacks, ) make all tanks have the same basic tools that HG effectively "requires":
--tumble+disc+parry(the classes that can afford to skip parry, eg due crit imm, have it as class skills, while the ones that lack it as class skill need to take LSA, it's more of a -1 feat than a choice) on the one hand
--base attack+conceal penetration on the other hand

and variation/diversity comes from the other class numbers class features themselves. hit dice, ab and skill points remain as variated numbers, but this isn't PnP, it's a min/max video game, unlike vanilla or pnp, there's no defensive/rp benefit from non-t1-splashed t2bab classes strong enuff that outweighs the immense value of a 4th attack, so hitting 16bab is more of a chore/necessity than an option; and as for listen, it's just as bad or worse to have divine tanks clamoring for half-elf subraces, while the other races serve only as the butt of jokes or reserved for L80 c/c listen toys

/whatever

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2018 15:21:28 GMT sabregirl said:

If the real problem is the bonus attack, why isn't everyone using toyshop boots until they get a wrap?

That one is not even a buff that wears off . . .

or is it the fact that the prince wrap stacks with harper scout, partly, while toyshop boots do not? Is it desire for breach boots?

Toyshop Boots are very weak. As you mentioned they compete with both Breach Boots and Harper Boots, which are usually the two boots of choice for most tanks.

Furthermore, being only 1/day means that your one chance vanishes upon death; I suspect that for many players, 1/day with infinite duration would last less than 3/day for 5 mins apiece. Getting extra LBAB for T2 classes is the icing on the cake.

The Uxan plate is an okay enough substitute for most toons (usually causing a similar AC hit to Toyshop Boots). I use it on my Shadowdancer, since she isn’t tagged to Azz3 yet. Certain builds aren’t able to put it to decent use though.

If I had absolutely no access to Wrap or Uxan plate *then* I might consider Toyshop Boots. They’re extremely hard to fit and I’d hiss and spit along the way, but +1 APR is +1 APR - if my toon is able to fit it in without dying then I’ll try to make it work because as long as I can survive, dealing damage is my #1 priority. But not everyone thinks the same way as I do.

Thankfully I do have access to Wraps and Uxan plate, so here we are