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Post by Methes on Jan 8, 2018 0:42:13 GMT
To me it seems really weird to have a certain item that is a "must have" for tanks to be enjoyably effective. Even more weird is trying to replace that item by creating lesser version of it (rod) that every tank has to use. Has character balance come to a point where a certain external item is a must have to function properly? That doesn't seem healthy at all, the opposite looks more appealing. Removing the Wrap and altering other mechanics to achieve the pleasant state. HG is competing with other action RPGs as it's getting older and players are now used to much more player friendly game engines along with being more casual gamers. Trying to recreate lower level Wrap doesn't really follow that.
EDIT: Funky also recently said he'd like to adress the power of gear which is set too high. Creatig another Wrap goes against that.
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Post by woqued on Jan 8, 2018 11:14:12 GMT
To me it seems really weird to have a certain item that is a "must have" for tanks to be enjoyably effective. Even more weird is trying to replace that item by creating lesser version of it (rod) that every tank has to use. Has character balance come to a point where a certain external item is a must have to function properly? That doesn't seem healthy at all, the opposite looks more appealing. Removing the Wrap and altering other mechanics to achieve the pleasant state. HG is competing with other action RPGs as it's getting older and players are now used to much more player friendly game engines along with being more casual gamers. Trying to recreate lower level Wrap doesn't really follow that. EDIT: Funky also recently said he'd like to adress the power of gear which is set too high. Creatig another Wrap goes against that. Paragon feat for extra attack! Remove all the w(c)raps! Book for BAB and LBAB Equality! Woo! Release the Kraken!
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Post by desocupado on Jan 8, 2018 12:22:18 GMT
I've been thinking LBAB could be 15 for all classes (and divine power/tenser/heroism lose that legendary AB buff aspect) Maybe epic AB should be increased to 15 and Legendary AB decreased 10 (since one gain lots of ab due stat bonuses in LL - and to make an elegant 20/15/10/5 AB gain table in regular, epic, legendary and paragon levels) Assassin, Rogue, SD, XDD, druid, shifters and inventors would really appreciate that extra ab. When it comes to AB values... Why have books or differences at all? This just makes Pre-epic levels class breakdown a chore. ---------------- That would solve 1 extra attack attack from pre-epic BAB 15 or less (i.e. every class becoming tier 1 AB). The two extra attacks from CL 45 and 55 Divine Power/Tenser's could simply be a bonus from both Epic and Legendary weapon focus feats. So all tanks feel a growth in power during LL (and have their own "epic spell" in the form of an extra attack during Epic levels). ---------------- That leaves Harper Scout's boots out of flavor - which is sad - but they could gain extra skill options (Pickpocket and UMD) and skill points to master these could fit there. The boots themselves could ease such feats (Epic/Legendary Skill focus).
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 13, 2018 6:36:46 GMT
To me it seems really weird to have a certain item that is a "must have" for tanks to be enjoyably effective. Even more weird is trying to replace that item by creating lesser version of it (rod) that every tank has to use. Has character balance come to a point where a certain external item is a must have to function properly? That doesn't seem healthy at all, the opposite looks more appealing. Removing the Wrap and altering other mechanics to achieve the pleasant state. HG is competing with other action RPGs as it's getting older and players are now used to much more player friendly game engines along with being more casual gamers. Trying to recreate lower level Wrap doesn't really follow that. EDIT: Funky also recently said he'd like to adress the power of gear which is set too high. Creatig another Wrap goes against that. Getting warmer... Wrap almost certainly has to be nerfed. By this point, it doesn't surprise me that players don't want to say that, but it's true. 'Altering other mechanics to achieve the pleasant state' is what I'm eyeballing. Ideas welcome. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 13, 2018 6:40:41 GMT
Paragon feat for extra attack! Remove all the w(c)raps! Book for BAB and LBAB Equality! Woo! Release the Kraken! Feats for both are more likely. Another long-term build goal is build diversity, which requires some feat tightness. Will help even more when we swap to EE and WW is working. Problem is, where does that leave the Wrap? Funky
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Post by woqued on Jan 13, 2018 9:22:49 GMT
Paragon feat for extra attack! Remove all the w(c)raps! Book for BAB and LBAB Equality! Woo! Release the Kraken! Feats for both are more likely. Another long-term build goal is build diversity, which requires some feat tightness. Will help even more when we swap to EE and WW is working. Problem is, where does that leave the Wrap? Funky Damage trumps all for tanks and as such wrap is king of the hill. There is no competition for cloaks that offer that - only exception is really the Battlecleric cloak from Limbo - cloaks of that tier would compete with wrap for other classes as well, but not really as long as Wrap is the only way to get attacks per round easily and universally for most classes. The biggest issue of wrap is simply that, imo. Damage trumps all and there are no other cloaks that offer damage output, and wrap does it really well. On top of that it offers that unique power via AB and two extra attacks to pure weaklings. If we had more cloaks that offer more power feat-wise than Wrap provides - via overwhelming/devastating critical feats, improved power attack, improved expertise, ESF and high +listen, class-specific boosts to damage (like egos for AA), improved sneak feats etc and made the extra attack from paragon feat NOT stack with Divine Power induced extra attacks, then there we go. Sidenote: Clerics and Slingers are already feat-tight at paragon tier and would be at similar position as they are now in comparison to other tanks (since ideally other tanks use wraps now, would trade 1 pl feat and get a new cloak instead) and don't really need the extra attack the feat would provide. Now that wrap lost it's position as undisputed top cloak in this hypothetical world without nerfing the cloak itself directly in any way - would drop wrap popularity immensely right there possibly close to unused status, assuming people have cloaks that are better than one paragon feat in defensive power over wrap. If wrap is the only way for pure rogs to get on even level pre-epic BAB-wise they'd still use but be pretty much the only ones. I think killing wrap if it means we get cool feats and more even class-balance is a suitable destiny for just one item to free an item slot from eternal pigeonhole and enable many classes far better pre-azzagratpt3. Can give that item some other cool function to make up, if it was already intended to be changed(nerfed) might just give it a new function instead, like being stacked with other useful offensive feats from the list i mentioned before to not leave it as a dead drop. Regarding long-term build diversity, we are already there. Our "Limbo tanks" at 80 are pretty feat (and gear) tight for endgame, and new tanks at lvl 60 for Hells are also pretty strained to reach sufficient saves/ac/ab/damage for that content. The feat fluidity comes from powercreep in the first place, lvl 80 demix2+ prince winners can misplace their feats quite freely and still do ok in Hells/Abyss (or just a lvl 66 in Hells). I don't think we require MORE feat tightness pre-PL feats if we are doing level-appropriate content. That is going in the opposite direction, it seems to me. We are already (pretty much) here for tanks: LL feats: LWF (wep focus), LWS(wepspec, fightersplashers), LSA-Tumble, +2-3 save/skill feats +1-2 class-specific hole-fillers like improved sneak/epic dodge for rugs, mighty/terrifying rage for barb; with 2nd LSA for Listen or perhaps Disc. Caster tanks have few more variations via spell focus feats, epic spells but they have their own feat tightness issues of never having half of what they want. This only really changes for Paladin/BG who don't need the saves and classes splashing into having those saves who get to take more stats/epic skill focus feats in return. Having more feat tightness at LL tier is counter-productive, imo. Will lead to all feats set in stone for some classes. It is Paragon tier where we have more flexibility but not many interesting feats to take for non-fighter non-caster tanks atm - PWF, PWS, +4. Fill holes you couldn't fill earlier or take environmental adaptivity / survival feats like WB/Lev - simply because there aren't really that many strong paragon feats. Having the extra attack take a spot at Paragon tier makes perfect sense, but setting the non-t1 bab classes behind in in LL/Paragon feat tier is unneeded imo - if the other two feats would be in feat-form they should be ripe for picking pre-LL or with a book. Edit:^that could be wrong on my part where the classes gaining access to these feats would be happy to take at Legendary Levels and I just haven't been there for a while; but point stands that the current topdogs in fighters, lashes, divines, rangers, monksplashing t1 classes, etc are ahead even after those feats are added into the game so I don't see why the classes benefiting from them would be forced into spending feats for that power that still leaves them behind. /Derail: Speaking of build diversity there are certain things that seem to impede that. 1 is mandatory listen and tumble. That requires jumping through hurdles that you must get to, forcing divines into Half-Elves, forcing everyone not versed in tumble into going blooded + lsa tumble first (denying access to the cool save feats unless going human, not possible for classes without listen). I don't see why listen isn't available in similar way to non-Half-Elves as tumble/disc/etc is to others; and have half-elves gain the lvl 1 feat for free. Race-diversity increased, and makes buffing certain weaker subraces uniquely by just adding some of those "only at lvl 1, allows you to do cool stuff later" feats into them.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 13, 2018 15:56:22 GMT
Regarding long-term build diversity, we are already there. *snip* - simply because there aren't really that many strong paragon feats. I get the impression you're not understanding what I mean when I talk about feat tightness. When I use that term, I am describing an ideal state where tanks have more appealing feats than they can take - ideally at all tiers, so that paragon feat choices are more appealing than legendary ones. Do not confuse this with the separate and unrelated issue of whether builds will be satisfying to play in end game content. They inter-relate as follows: players customize their builds using feats of their choice, being forced to make hard decisions that require trade-offs, rather than being able to take all the feats they want. Multiple choices should prove both viable and enjoyable in endgame content, though some builds will do some things better in some areas, and worse in others (and others will just prove bad, as always). As always, this kind of balance is a moving target, shifting with each new mechanic and area release. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 13, 2018 15:58:24 GMT
/Derail: Speaking of build diversity there are certain things that seem to impede that. 1 is mandatory listen and tumble. That requires jumping through hurdles that you must get to, forcing divines into Half-Elves, forcing everyone not versed in tumble into going blooded + lsa tumble first (denying access to the cool save feats unless going human, not possible for classes without listen). I don't see why listen isn't available in similar way to non-Half-Elves as tumble/disc/etc is to others; and have half-elves gain the lvl 1 feat for free. Race-diversity increased, and makes buffing certain weaker subraces uniquely by just adding some of those "only at lvl 1, allows you to do cool stuff later" feats into them. I agree, to an extent, insofar as tumble is a 'required' skill, and we've taken some steps in the past to loosen this. If you have a specific proposal, make it - though in another thread, please. My inclination would be another feat or feats mimicking tumble (or just granting points in it, and available beyond those strictures). Tx, Funky
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Post by woqued on Jan 13, 2018 22:24:54 GMT
Regarding long-term build diversity, we are already there. *snip* - simply because there aren't really that many strong paragon feats. I get the impression you're not understanding what I mean when I talk about feat tightness. When I use that term, I am describing an ideal state where tanks have more appealing feats than they can take - ideally at all tiers, so that paragon feat choices are more appealing than legendary ones. Do not confuse this with the separate and unrelated issue of whether builds will be satisfying to play in end game content. They inter-relate as follows: players customize their builds using feats of their choice, being forced to make hard decisions that require trade-offs, rather than being able to take all the feats they want. Multiple choices should prove both viable and enjoyable in endgame content, though some builds will do some things better in some areas, and worse in others (and others will just prove bad, as always). As always, this kind of balance is a moving target, shifting with each new mechanic and area release. Funky I was under impression my post was illustrating this. LL feats are just that as there is plenty to take, some of it must haves some of it not so much depending on class - but there are plenty of feats to take that are fitting for that power tier or alternatively work as a nice extension to post40 content. Paragon feats are all over the place or don't exist so we end up taking 2-3 environmental feats simply because there is not much else to take other than low value paragon feats or stuff we could've taken at pre-LL or at LL tier already. Unlike the caster types where they are all at your wanted point of feat tightness of having wayyyy more to take than what they get. Extra attack feat is an awesome start to move things along in your wanted direction for tanks. This is what I was trying to bring under a spotlight - and also why letting a feat take Wraps place would be a nice thing - essentially fixing an issue with an existing item and providing more to look forward to feat-wise as we progress beyond 60. Then we'd just need a few more universally lucrative paragon feats for tank types and they're kept preoccupied by wanting them all. Regardless have we reached a point where wrap being replaced by feat(s) providing similar effects will end in satisfying implementation? I'll stop posting in this thread if there is a fix in mind to repetition of points and to avoid wasting anyones time. If there are ideas out there that haven't been mentioned here - or some glaring issues in the ones discussed in this thread - chime in please.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 14, 2018 16:50:20 GMT
I'm just unsure how Wrap will fare if we add both those feats; at least in the long-term once people have reinc'd with them.
Funky
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Post by greven on Jan 14, 2018 19:27:05 GMT
I'm just unsure how Wrap will fare if we add both those feats; at least in the long-term once people have reinc'd with them. Funky The Wrap could provide an alternate offensive boost instead, such as an upgraded Teldar's Toolbelt effect (Enhancement bonus and keen) and/or the ability to cast a weapon damage dice spell at a specific level.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 19:35:51 GMT
I'm just unsure how Wrap will fare if we add both those feats; at least in the long-term once people have reinc'd with them. Funky I think it'd still have some value after the addition of those feats; after all, it still has some decent properties (+16 CHA, 3d6 Sneak, Level 4 Spell Immunity) and it would be filling in for two Paragon feats (eg: 2x Environmental Adaptivity). Whether I would continue using it or not would depend on the specific toons kit and what sort of cloaks I have available, but overall this forces a legitimate choice which isn't a bad thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 19:43:19 GMT
I'm just unsure how Wrap will fare if we add both those feats; at least in the long-term once people have reinc'd with them. Funky The Wrap could provide an alternate offensive boost instead, such as an upgraded Teldar's Toolbelt effect (Enhancement bonus and keen) and/or the ability to cast a weapon damage dice spell at a specific level. These are good ideas, but I would rather see them on legit Sets at the appropriate level (ie: a 40-60 option for pre-Hell toons, and a 70+ option from Limbo).
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Post by drunkenboastor on Jan 14, 2018 20:36:08 GMT
I do not know what the big deal is here. Complaining about having to use an equipment slot to increase damage output is like a spell caster complaining about having to use bonus spell slot equipment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 20:54:46 GMT
I do not know what the big deal is here. Complaining about having to use an equipment slot to increase damage output is like a spell caster complaining about having to use bonus spell slot equipment. What if the only bonus spell slot equipment in the game came from Azz3 boss-chests or an UR Heavy Armor? If that was the case, I would definitely vote for having more options for bonus spell slot equipment to be available. IMO the issue isn’t that it occupies a cloak slot, but how difficult the cloak is to acquire relative to the benefit it provides (with the only alternative being a large drop in AC for toons able to wear armor).
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