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Post by greven on Jan 14, 2018 21:01:39 GMT
I do not know what the big deal is here. Complaining about having to use an equipment slot to increase damage output is like a spell caster complaining about having to use bonus spell slot equipment. This is an interesting perspective. Since HG has tons of items that provide bonus spell slots, and only the Wrap (and a couple other items) that provide bonus attacks and increased accuracy, the Wrap is used, or desired, by essentially all damage tanks and archers. So, perhaps another way of looking at this issue is that non-caster offensive characters have far, far too few items that increase offense, rather than too many.
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Post by woqued on Jan 15, 2018 1:34:41 GMT
I do not know what the big deal is here. Complaining about having to use an equipment slot to increase damage output is like a spell caster complaining about having to use bonus spell slot equipment. This is an interesting perspective. Since HG has tons of items that provide bonus spell slots, and only the Wrap (and a couple other items) that provide bonus attacks and increased accuracy, the Wrap is used, or desired, by essentially all damage tanks and archers. So, perhaps another way of looking at this issue is that non-caster offensive characters have far, far too few items that increase offense, rather than too many. This is one way to look at it yes. Nobody was complaining about having to use an equipment slot to increase damage output though. It would be fine if we could choose which item slot and there were many alternatives, however that is not the case. Wrap will most of the time outmatch even the best of the zomfgwowzies randomized XR cloaks for vast majority of tanks and archers. There are builds that are junk without Wrap but strong enough to compete when equipped with it. There are no alternatives to this item. Having same effect with feats could have many energizing effects to the metagaming, potentially so could a vast variety in similar items in different item slots to give a fresh breath of air to the itemization metagame for tanks and archers. Which is easier and more feasible to implement though? I do feel a ticklish sensation in my groin when I think of belts, gloves, helmets, boots and shields with divine power activation though... Those things could be described as "a big deal" from devving pov. Whether it is as big a point to focus on as some other issues with the game is something else though.
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Post by TJ on Jan 15, 2018 3:45:24 GMT
Tia is a low-ish level run that drops three pieces of caster gear guaranteed. Wrap is a maybe on a P3 Abyss run, making it FAR more rare yet as DB stated, just as mandatory for the increased output. That's the problem.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 15, 2018 15:12:53 GMT
As a developer, the issue is also that players should not be limited to a single piece of gear due to properties. No point in making all that other gear if one piece is so overwhelmingly better for so many toons.
Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 15, 2018 16:22:33 GMT
While searching for another discussion, stumbled upon this, from before I became the server admin: *Mission Statement (this last is mine but I think we all agree on these – I post these partly in response to recent player complaints about the upcoming purge, feel free to repost them elsewhere): The overall goals: Making all classes playable, enjoyable, and different – seen a shifter in the abyss recently? EVER? Allowing greater variety in class builds – no longer will you need 60+ ab to begin to think about hitting something in the drow, or a pure 40 caster for a spell to get through (not that they were at that point either) Making more skills useful Making all areas interesting and worthwhile to explore, instead of incentivizing powerleveling in a few areas Preventing players AND monsters from becoming undamageable gods – seeing damage scrolling in combat for a change, on both sides Preventing reliance on a few tired and overpowered ‘crutch’ items *cough* Barrier *cough* Pummel *cough*Maintaining ‘uber’ equipment to the greatest extent possible given these other concerns– it WILL NOT, CAN NOT be the same, though Turns out I've been repeating the same crap for over a dozen years - see note in bold. The 'abyss' referenced is the immo run, not our current abyss. Funky
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Post by drunkenboastor on Jan 15, 2018 20:21:40 GMT
Divine Power spell from items increases class diversity, it helps tier 2 LBAB classes to a more equal standing, and allows less than 16 BAB builds to be viable.
It would be pretty easy to come up with a list of set items that 90% of builds would use. Should all those items be nerfed as well?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 15, 2018 20:26:17 GMT
It increases it at the expense of gear diversity. Those goals I listed are not either/ors. If they're as ubiquitous as the Wrap, then yes. If they're just the best for a particular build, probably not, though that does complicate development. That's one of the reasons I'm very tempted to ditch HS boots, though we have held off for the time being because of the numerous other edits that would entail. The wrap not being specifically linked to a particular class ability makes it simpler, though not problem-free, to properly balance. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 21:34:38 GMT
If there is a bonus attack feat (which doesn't stack with Wrap) and an LBAB boosting feat, the necessity of Wrap would be reduced hugely.
If easier to acquire alternatives to Wrap were added (eg: CL50 Divine Power on various slots such as Set Amulets/Gloves/Helms spread across Level 40-60 runs) then gear diversity is increased, and the necessity of Wrap would be reduced hugely.
Why not just use both of these approaches at the same time? Let players choose between several items (with the decision being based on what they can acquire and which slots fit their kit best), with an alternative of spending feats to acquire a similar effect. I would probably use the feat on certain toons and the item on others, so it might be a good balance of both build and gear diversity.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 16, 2018 2:49:21 GMT
Why not just use both of these approaches at the same time? No reason at all, other than that it further complicates loot creation. And that, probably not by much. This is tentatively what I'm planning to do, since, if we are leaving that DP available, there's little reason not to. Originally I had contemplated simply removing it, because of the disproportionate impact it had on game balance, but it also boosts build diversity, and the increases to tank power coming down the road that render it potentially problematic, are mostly FAR down the road. Funky
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