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Post by Raj on Dec 10, 2017 18:56:03 GMT
Yes let wait for the next edits.
As a guild, we've been to pt2 hard 5/6 times, add a couple more farming experiences and still under 10 times because it's a damn huge time sink for poor rewards (and we're your only reliable feedback, having played there). Not because we had issues dieing vs mobs, but because it took damn long to chew through that many hp/dr/sp/regen values so improving ac as well on some dodgy enemies needs to wait for some toning down if you want any other player/guild to get there.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2017 18:59:09 GMT
As it stands from player perspective Limbo pt2 is a lvl 72-75 + run. If the scale went up as you mention across the board, even lvl 80 casters would be impotent offensively except for spells that ignore SR and drop saves with repeated casts; CS wouldn't work on anything that even thinks of parry, and we wouldn't make most of the ability score checks. We would kill EVERYTHING with shifters and tanks, or more than likely simply die trying. At lvl 80. This is all specifically with PT2 in mind which you NEED to optimize the party in a damage-oriented way in order to make it a satisfying experience. Otherwise it simply takes way too long for a human being with anything else to do in life. Limbo is a bit of an outlier in some respects, in that it was slanted towards making tanks more relevant (per old complaints about tank irrelevance and casters roflpning everything after PLs dropped). It likely went a hair too far there, given that it's the only area of that range. We'll bear that in mind given the goal of balancing end-game play. Interestingly, after discussing with the Team, we went with pegging Limbo at 70 instead of 63. We'll debate what that means once we have made a round of tweaks to fix other problems with Limbo. To be clear, that does NOT mean we decided to up-stat Limbo. So yup, wait for the updates. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 10, 2017 19:25:05 GMT
Yes let wait for the next edits. As a guild, we've been to pt2 hard 5/6 times, add a couple more farming experiences and still under 10 times because it's a damn huge time sink for poor rewards (and we're your only reliable feedback, having played there). Not because we had issues dieing vs mobs, but because it took damn long to chew through that many hp/dr/sp/regen values so improving ac as well on some dodgy enemies needs to wait for some toning down if you want any other player/guild to get there. So I had a quick chat with acaos to jog my memory about specifics we did to Limbo to make it more tank-friendly. They involved more SR than typical, and fewer insta-vulns. We're going to make edits to preserve tanks' favored status while reducing runtimes. Mechanus will favor casters somewhat over tanks but feature comparable runtimes (when done and fully balanced). Some of those edits will likely include new class abilities supressing/debuffing enemy regen (though not in next update). Not sure yet if stats like AC will up. Tada! Problem -> opportunity. Funky
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Post by Raj on Dec 10, 2017 19:30:49 GMT
Oh being tank friendly is fine. Being only-2handed-heavy-hitting-grunts friendly is not I'm not letting SG join with her assassin/dexbard/dexwc/dexanything anytime soon! I know I was one of the supporters of "making 2h great again" but if enemies have too high DR that the only way for elemental damage on weapons to do anything is if it's multiplied by 140%, and dexters deal about 0 physical damage as well, they become the only choice to end a run before people have to go sleep or gag their yelling wife. Having 5-6 strong 2h attacks should net the same dmg output of 8-10 dualwielding ones, or 7-8 apr of a tenser/divine power sword+board user. That's actually possible in Hells with 0 dr everywhere but then we tell limbo newcomers their toons simply don't pack enough of a punch. Yes yes more rambling after next edits.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 10, 2017 20:57:06 GMT
I have one suggestion - is it possible for the handed damage boost only affect PHYSICAL damage? (While reducing enemies DR)
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Post by chirality on Dec 10, 2017 22:24:29 GMT
aka what the vanilla engine already does...?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2017 22:27:40 GMT
aka what the vanilla engine already does...? The vanilla engine affects STR modifier for 2Hers, I *think* desocupado is talking about total physical damage (ie: not affecting elemental/exotic damage).
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Post by desocupado on Dec 11, 2017 0:37:33 GMT
This would equalize one hand and two handed with weapon buffs - indeed I'm talking about the "new" 40-50%.
But on top of that a DR reduction would make sense (imagine that high DR is akin to a enemy having immunity too all but one kind of tank - it shouldn't be wide spread)
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Post by chirality on Dec 11, 2017 2:00:20 GMT
Restricting 2h% to phys is interesting concept but prolly needs careful attention for enuff advantage to merit net zotcost. If mob stats get the rework necessary to make such a move palatable (across-the-board DR nerfs) then 2hers already lose a lot of appeal in the first place; then combine loss of ele/exo 2h%bonus and 2hers start to look a lot like they did before original buff in the first place, with "only" (Not "insignificant") advantage being lot more phys dmg than others. Pros: Not necessarily a bad thing (always thought [edit: *universally-applied* ] 2h% caused lot more problems than solved and was bit of mistake tbh); and still 40% extra phys on top of vanilla 1.5strmod is stronk. Yet still there's issue of mobs (from db upward) being often quite black/white in respect to phys taken, and on one hand PWA exists to help there, otoh no more dual type weaps, so even heavyhitting 2h may often be relying on ele/exo for penetration (wasnt problem of 2h phys rarely being enuff to justify loss of ac/gearslot part of reasoning for inital 2h%buff in first place) Anyway, I think it would be kewl change (makes lot more logic if nothing else) but leaves wondering how much mob re-starting would be wanted (let's let funky focus on limbo mobs atm and see after EE/limbo/dexer dev ship sailed), and if already-under-discussion changes regarding general edits (mobs, class features?) for sake of 2h vs other tanks comes to fruition, leaves wondering how attractive 2hers still are anyway, let alone after another 2h % nerf. Not a bad thing if pendum swings back a lil, but would be shame to have it swing too far and go back to 2hers=hard argument to play vs s+b/dw; then years of effort and metashifting for naught. Often such extreme changes drives HG (nerfbat generally swinging too hard) so let's avoid history repeating over and over. I think idea has some value tho if balanced carefully, could help promote a softer nerfbat swing and preserve true "balance" rather than flavor-of-year op vs. unplayed rotation, but lot on dev plate atm soo...
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