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Post by manuka on Jul 20, 2018 20:46:40 GMT
Corrupter of fate, the race looks interesting at first look. However when u try make a life threader they seem average and require far too many 888999 cleric augs. Id suggest adding an additional passive that would only benefit life threaders. Life threading takes 1 spell every 2 rounds. Instead of every round.
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Post by Matt on Apr 29, 2020 17:57:51 GMT
So upon getting an looking at Neraphim, the stats imo seem lackluster and feats rather random for the race.
"Neraphim" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- requires Human
FC: Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian
STR +6
CON +4
INT +4
Search +4
Spot +4
Free Feats: Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Armor Skin
Other: All elemental damage Immunities +10%
Book of Races, Neraphim
_________________
looking at the lore, they seem to sway more towards the hunter-gatherer background. they are also adept at confusing the enemy in battle, with great agility and can camouflage their attacks. very fast base movement in lore, legs for leaping huge lengths at a time.
- requires Human
FC: Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian
STR +6
Dex +2 CON +4 INT +2 Search +4
Spot +4
Tumble +30 Free Feats: Power Attack, Armor Skin , ESF: Hide Immunity: Charmed Special Ability: Leaping attack (vanilla shadowstep without the added attack/etc..). Potential Alt to special ability (+10 to KD checks, or maybe even innate KD immunity as a whole?) Other: All elemental damage Immunities +10%
Movement: Very Fast Book of Races, Neraphim.
The proposed changes are in green. I think the alteration in stats is a fair trade off, losing some of the unnecessary feats, gaining some lore enthused traits whilst also suggesting a special leap ability to rival that of a shadow dancer. Even if it is made to limit to a certain smaller range.
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Post by woqued on Apr 29, 2020 19:35:10 GMT
On Neraphim: Ye, currently the sub is bad but it looks like you're making a trash race even worse Do you not value improved feats or expertise at all, to have net-total of less feats after your proposed change? Changing the feats around like that would mean it is terrible for anything but Hidesplashing via harper or otherwise, or going LSA:Hide, and still have less feats than before. Moving two int to dex only means it is an upgrade for barbs, others would still benefit from the int and feel sad about the excessive CON. The CON is the lacking part of the sub for anything but barbs - for them the +4 int is excessive on a human race. If you wanna buff/change the race, turn the improved feats into other WM pre-req feats (for non-fighters, who benefit from the feats due to being featstarved) and/or change some of the improved feats into +2 dex while at it. To me, the ESF:Hide / Immunity:Charmed / Movement: Very Fast are quite "fluff" -tier things and the ESF:Hide especially pigeonholes you into a choice you may not want to make for such a "generalist-feel" sub. Let the Hide takers make the choice to invest in ESF:Hide if they so choose. TLDR: just move the feats towards Barbs (saves/dex/oc/dc pre-reqs in cleave/greatcleave) or WMs (change some improved feats to wm pre-req feats, and up dex by +2, lower con by 2, add a feat on top). I don't really know what this sub is for anyway, besides being an upgrade race from bur to xr for fighters/barbs. Barb? Too much int, worthless fluff in ele dmg imm, 0 dex low amount of pre-req feats for good splashes, no saves, sheesh just crap. Not barb? Terrible stats. Not above 110 ab build? Weak nigh useless improved feats in paragon content that is the supposed goal for a XR sub I hope and again - a choice forced upon a sub only good for an already surprisingly feat-starved build. Fighters just meanwhile can get away with anything.
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Post by Matt on Apr 29, 2020 19:47:38 GMT
Didnt want to add the "buffs" i.e. KD immunity, potential shadowstep (that fit with race lore) without taking something out. I agree on the int, Wisdom would be better and more fitting, but rather stronk. Theres already a barbarian XR race with the text same stats but with actual barbarian feats too! I like the idea of doing something with conceal too, maybe allowing the cap to go higher on hide, getting a tad more conceal or epic dodge etc... kind of stuff.
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Post by woqued on Apr 29, 2020 20:18:50 GMT
Didnt want to add the "buffs" i.e. KD immunity, potential shadowstep (that fit with race lore) without taking something out. I agree on the int, Wisdom would be better and more fitting, but rather stronk. Theres already a barbarian XR race with the text same stats but with actual barbarian feats too! I like the idea of doing something with conceal too, maybe allowing the cap to go higher on hide, getting a tad more conceal or epic dodge etc... kind of stuff. Yes, and that barb race sucks as well. I don't know who came up with these, definitely nobody who actually played or built a barb with Paragon content in mind - and thundering rage is an outdated joke with that crappy 5d10 sonic it was bad even before XRs were a thing, alertness being useless unless pigeonholing to Harper (yay). The fire is nice, but meh meh. Duno if Tanarukk makes thundering rage grant only the fire buff +5 dice instead of any sonic (that is actually a good thing about the sub). Otherwise, it's basically 3 feats on a +14 stat base - aka pretty shit, high tier BUR class tier, very bad for an XR. Maybe the dodgy stuff would be better left for the dodgy races in Halfling / Elf / Half-Elven subraces, unless you want a complete rework. Tbh the stuff I mentioned earlier just makes Neraphim into a Spiker copycat so that's probably not what is a positive change either. Also, pure KD immunity across all stat types would be very (too?) strong indeed, probably fixing at least some of the issues the class faces now and in the future. Wisdom would only be better if you go Monk - and forcing the choice, otherwise it's just +1 will/+2 vs wis stat checks. Else, it becomes a ranger/divine base without cha/half-elf (sucks for divines) and for rangers it's just not a very good base even if it had +2 wis. Similar issue as there is in the AA sub Favored of Solonor - it FORCES you to go monk to benefit from the sub, but that one is an even worse offender because it is also giving feats that monks get for free, sigh. Just terribly poorly devised races - probably due to short sighted decisions or just due to being rushed - or just poor builders pressing random stat/feat/ability buttons on a list based on already outdated builds. Complete reworks to the Ranger/Monk wisdom base (fitting lorewise better than this abomination of a barb we got now and fulfilling your non-shadowdancer shadowdancer fantasy) example: +6 str +4 wis +2 con +2 int +2 dex -2 cha [net total of 16 -2 = 14 - also suitable nerf against divines] free feats: armor skin, power attack [2 feats total, less than Favored of Solonor with their free longbow with similar stat spread - intentionally making it a bit weaker here for sake of conversation] has your wonky free teleport [lore fitting, them and their froggy jumping] +4 search [lore, current][WEAK] +4 spot [lore, current][WEAK] +10% all elem imms [lore, current] [WEAK] Other potential lore comparatively fluff bonuses: Concealment - very strong. Speed[FLUFF, ENJOYABLE] Brutal Throwing[WEAK or is it?] Immunity Charmed[very situational, but potentially interesting - imo quite weak, some lazy slow player and/or multiboxer stuff] Survival (whatever that is, to Limbo nature? Maybe darkness, so we get Spell Immunity: Darkness? - potentially strong, definitely unique)
... after 10 edits, the formating and everything on this post sucks. sorry i just wanted to use these [ ] to put emphasis and failed
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Post by Matt on Apr 29, 2020 20:47:46 GMT
Definitely some good ideas there. I have to admit I've sold myself the froggy jumping at this point, flavour and utility without breaking anything.
In terms of feats that could be implemented into your revised idea, surely a line of reflex type saves could be added.
*edit Even with those changes aside from the (better imo) medium size it's not far greater if much at all than wemic.
- requires Half-Elf (changes to Dynamic Appearance) FC: Barbarian, Ranger
STR +4 DEX +6 CON +2 WIS +2 CHA -4 Free feats: Weapon Finesse, Called Shot, Epic Skill Focus Hide, Taunt, Listen
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Post by chainlink on Apr 29, 2020 21:29:02 GMT
You could give it OC/DC in Trident or Spear (Human Ranger 2h focus) once you take either WF Trident or Spear?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 29, 2020 23:13:15 GMT
Adding is far better than subtracting. If we do edits that only create upsides, we don't have to create a new character version to force-update all toons for an update.
Funky
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Post by woqued on Apr 30, 2020 0:20:51 GMT
Fair point, good to know. It is hard to make pure add buffs besides +1 feat or [fluff] type buffs because something like pure stat values throws them above the average XR values. That means that giving Neraphim the SD jump seems completely out of character with the other stats and theme it has since no big hauls would be made, unless you want a frogjump barb (would be funny as hell tbh).
I think something like +2 dex is actually too good without substracting - if we compare the two meh races in this case, Tanarukk and Neraphim have exactly the same stats, one has 2 feats every barb would take (tanarukk) other has 3 feats every barb would take (neraphim), and extra feats on top that they might take but don't necessarily take or might not be able to utilize well (well, before 80 + max tags anyway). Tanarukk has better special (+5 fire dice) and arguably better base race for Barb (half-orc). Both seem weak overall. If a change was to be made. Upside of Neraphim: doesn't have to be a Barbarian with their feats, but their stat spread is horrible for anything but a barb.
Random note: +16 useful stats and -2 to an offstat is superior to +14 useful stats. +18 useful stats and -4 to offstat is VASTLY stronger than +14 useful stats with no downside on current HG.
Let's compare to Spiker for sake of comparison: - +14 useful stats, - +5 useful feats for a WM type - if you go spiker, you almost have to go WM - it's so good for it, and doesn't have any other redeeming qualities for anything else and a massively better "fluff special" in +20% bludgeoning over anything Neraphim has.
I don't think Spiker is OP - there are others with more interesting stuff on it, but still the baseline is 5 feats you would absolutely take, and +14 useful stats (for barb, again, potentially* 2 int too much, but we'll ignore that since we at least have +2 dex too - prevalence of dex checks in mod makes that superior to +6 flat str unless you're STR based DC assassin). Neraphim and Tanarukk have more viability to go non-wm builds, but have significantly less definitely useful feats (2/3 vs 5, same stats).
Edit: I'll backtrack here a bit: you can find uses for skills if you really try, and int can be useful to fitting in extra skills such as CW/CA/Taunt/parry/concentration etc etc. My Neraphim was able to fit all of that, and more on top and spend 0 paragon skills to get stuff to 60+ - all could be used to go towards +50 mag cap. As such, if the extra skills you end up picking are just that, extra you don't really need then I find powerwise the extra int to be "unnecessary" over some more universally useful stat like Dex/Str/Con in case of Barb.
As such, I would consider some of the following options: A) Flat out +2 dex to one or the other race - worth 2 feats, potentially too strong, and really boring change. B) Adding save feat(s) or +4 dex checks prowess to make up for inherent dex weakness - also boring, and not necessarily fitting (but fixes big issues in many runs - dex checks are so common against melee type characters pretty much everywhere but limbo pt2). C) Adding a lucrative special that doesn't increase power much, but gives a special niche you might use just for fun or special scenarios: i.e frogjump for Neraphim (screw shadowdancers! they op anyway! two things can have that special). D) Adding lore-fitting immunities (Charmed / Darkness in case of Neraphim) or something like Spell res 14+lvl or big fire immunity% for Tanarukk. E) Weapon Proficiency: Exotic to add options. Martial weapons are better than Exotic for Large weapons, so it is not exactly a power bump for anything using a Large weapon - and that is likely for these two subraces. Having exo feat simply doesn't punish you for using an exotic option. F) Speed increase - I would not consider this a power boost, just a QoL boost kind of like a cherry on top for using the subrace. Some might disagree. G) Other WM / OC/DC base feats, perhaps Cleave / Great Cleave or Dodge / Mobility - this does point them heavily towards WM so if that is not the plan then something else. H) For Neraphim, adding the base skills Hide 8 ranks, Move silently 8 ranks to allow it to compete alongside other Assassin subraces. I think it's rather poor for an Assassin, but at least it would allow it as an option for whatever it's worth.
Personally, I would just add the SD special on Neraphim to fulfill Matts fantasy of frog jumper and remove the inherent GS on SD from this one. Let the sub suck on paper, but have a special nothing else has. Frogjump or not I'm gonna reincarnate out of neraphim in 3 months for POWERRRR. Tanarukk I would add 14+ flat sr and let the sub rot until barb inherent feats like Thundering Rage are buffed to be worth picking instead of being detrimental due to healing and then the sub is ok again. Maybe someone figures out an OP purpose for it later and we can enjoy a stronk barb sub.
Tbh, if thundering rage was reworked to instead work same as the fire dice on tanarukk special for all barbs: let all barbs self-buff sonic on their weapons with 4(5?) dice and Tanarukk doing it with +1 to sonic and +1 to fire sub is fixed (+14, +3 feats, + some crap that might or might not be useful to them, but big dmg). 5d10 was impressive when Hells were new and people were running double weapons and nothing healed on Sonic, now 5d10 is mosquito bites that sometimes add up to significant amounts of healing done. If Tanarukks had two selfbuff high elementals, sub is fixed (though fire+sonic as types isn't the best combination in any run in the game - so not much potential for abuse either).
^Compare that change to Battlecleric sub Half-Sword Archon with +2 flame self-dice and +4 useful feats, +14 stats. Great sub, feels good but not actually OP and Tanarukk would still be inferior to that post-change, unless they make use of ESF:Intimidate/Taunt - and for reference, my barb has 127 under Limbo p2 hard pens even without the ESF feats. Food for thought on the relative power level of ESF feats.
Note: I have only tried to build a Neraphim barbarian (and did a particularly feat exhaustive one with double weapons - so that's a selfnerf right there) - haven't tried Tanarukk. Maybe Tanarukk is secretly op due to the +1 fire dice - but I think both are simply incredibly inferior to other options - namely Half-Goliath, anything with a better spread of DEX/STR/CON/INT/WIS(for monks) and just base feats. Barb feats are not any better than base combat feats for a barb and for that reason we simply count the feats they MUST take, and the improved feats while can be useful are not necessarily so. Having 5 feats that you would take no matter what is infinitely a lot better than 3 feats and 2 you might take or might use in a niche scenario - you could just pick them later if you so choose.
... After doing a lil research, I see many of the subraces were almost 1-1 copied from DND original lore, and that explains so much when it comes to endgame building with XR races - we as players often go for power, stats and "please don't be ugly / large" - the XR races are mostly quite diligent to following lore in their statting and ... size (dracotaur, ffs).
Sorry for the spam and big walls! I just really like chatting about these things and weighing the different options. Hopefully it provides something useful to someone.
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Post by woqued on Apr 30, 2020 0:43:42 GMT
Some notes on other "broken" XR subs:
Half-Dogai: if you can't substract stuff, just consider the ESF, armor and exo feats relatively low value for power purpose of the character: nothing but assa is gonna roll with it, the sub isn't competing with anything. It's just there to make assassins sad cuz it's worse than Half-Moly.
Flat out add Dodge and/or Mobility on it to make it possible to get Weaponmaster on that sub. Heck, even in Lore they have that/those. It's not gonna be op, but it's no longer gonna make Assassins cry about it being pretty much worse than Half-Molydeus due to inaccessible class spreads.
Edit: one more time: assassin players cry sometimes! Edit2: it is to qualify for x3+wm7/assa30 class spread for clarification. Otherwise you are pigeonholed to fighter for feats, or just completely out of access.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 30, 2020 8:43:17 GMT
Improved Expertise is pretty much only taken by Shifters (could also be used by casters but unlikely as its two feats you could better save for something better) as far as I am aware and whilst Power Attack is taken as an enabler to get OC/DC nothing I've seen has suggested IPA, if you had both of the improved feats active that's -20 AB, an impressively large number to defeat even the skills of a pure tier 1 build to hit anything without rolling a 20!
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Post by simpetar on Apr 30, 2020 8:53:08 GMT
Improved Expertise is pretty much only taken by Shifters Far from that, 2h tanks often make good use of it and not even ones who need to qualify for WM. Not really, HG (unlike other servers) does not allow casting with Expertise or Improved Expertise active. I am afraid that would be hugely impractical, -20 or even -15 to AB basically eliminate chance to hit, as you point out. Also impractical amount of coding effort, just for the sake of fixing 1 subpar XR
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Post by chainlink on Apr 30, 2020 9:20:03 GMT
Improved Expertise is pretty much only taken by Shifters Far from that, 2h tanks often make good use of it and not even ones who need to qualify for WM. Not really, HG (unlike other servers) does not allow casting with Expertise or Improved Expertise active. I am afraid that would be hugely impractical, -20 or even -15 to AB basically eliminate chance to hit, as you point out. Also impractical amount of coding effort, just for the sake of fixing 1 subpar XR So swap out IPA for something else and if you are saying that -15 AB eliminates the chance to hit your previous comment about Improved Expertise and a 2h build effectively means at best you will land only one successful hit with it up. I wasn't saying recode to fix the AB loss I was just pointing out the problem of two significant AB reduction feats on a tank focused (I'm guessing?) race.
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Post by Matt on Apr 30, 2020 9:25:44 GMT
Adds for QOL, low impact: Immunity: Charm, Confusion Movement: very fast Race conceal:50-60%
Better adds: Plane walking (fairly strong, not build breaking however) Buff elem immune to 50% each. Mighty Throw - increase crit threat/multiplier and or give innate mighty damage of say +20 for example Shadowstep - same as SD without GS Great wisdom/dex 3 LSA Tumble, Listen, Search Grant Greater wep focus + epic wep focus with chosen WF Grant Oc/DC with chosen IC weapon. Some kind of permanent chaos aura like barb or rdd, lowers stats/saves/abac racial bonus attack a round, 50% damage increase with throwing weapons
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 30, 2020 12:40:21 GMT
Some notes on other "broken" XR subs: Half-Dogai: if you can't substract stuff, Not what I said. We can, but other solutions are better if available. Funky
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