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Post by Bad on Jul 20, 2018 18:20:02 GMT
I was thinking that currently there is not a huge incentive to explore the whole mod and that many players just go immo then grind xp to 55 hit the hells and never look back.
I think that if all the Ll tags gave a minor bonus similar to prell accomplishments . We would see vets exploring the whole mod and allot of the great content that gets very little play would suddenly be revitalized.
This would also make the grind to level 80 a bit less grindy with a minor xp bonus from ll tag bonus.
Bad
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Post by magecat on Jul 20, 2018 20:10:44 GMT
I think this is true in general. Most senior players know the direct route to the objective, head straight there and are out.
This tends to be a hindrance to newer players that are still in the process of getting a proper equipment stash built up.
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Post by boho on Jul 20, 2018 21:25:41 GMT
The only way to make it happen is to make it worth the high end players' time to do lower-end content -- especially tags. The classic solution is to grant a reward appropriate to high-end players for slumming it with less-populated lower levels. That's typically experience where applicable and then gear, meaningful currency like Canopics, or consumables such as gems, augments, polishes, etc for a more a tangible reward. Smart designers also throw in a bonus reward in cases where there's an honest-to-god newbie on the run -- in the context of HG, this would mean being partied with a player who did not have that run's tag. And no, their own bots don't count. Anything short of this has been shown pretty reliably not to influence player behavior in dikuMUDs, since we're all here to min/max, get stronger, and push the limits of our characters.
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Post by chirality on Jul 21, 2018 5:10:01 GMT
i'd be surprised if adding more tags was something ppl liked, considered the large amount of hate the lowbie tag system has recieved (both from new players and vets). personally, i like it, and it'd be pretty cool. but i have the feeling it would end up being "gamed" just like lowbie tags and seen as a means to and end...same as lowbie tags...just figure out the most efficient way to gain the benefit and move on. afaik most ppl do most LL runs at least once for the tag, so incentivizing it with tag bonuses prolly wouldn't make a big difference. you'd still have ppl do it for the tag and then what motivation do they have to repeat/get hands dirty with new players exploring and learning? imo there's already ppl that do this, for no in-game incentive but just because they enjoy it and are motivated to do it for their own reasons. some ppl don't care, don't have the time, or aren't on at the right times. shrug. dropping end-game loot tokens or something would be a good incentive for vets to actually "run" LLs (rather than just "tag hunt") which would be the goal. but i'm not sure how easy it would be to create a system with a big enough carrot that's not abusable, especially in a bot-driven paradigm. like if it's canos, what's the amount that's enough to be worth my time, but not enough that i can build a toon to efficiently farm it at comparable rate of investment->return to actually doing limbo? imo a sorry issue with pre-hells play (well, hells/+ too ofc, but staying ontopic) is bot armies dragging LL runs where the nub gains little to nothing, and learns less than nothing. this was always the case (and a thing mentioned year after year in "new player gripe" or "population retention" threads), even before "hard times" hit hg. if vets/endgame runners are incentivized to run LLs for tangibles that hold value for them, then naturally they'll do it as efficiently as possible (crucible from PoM, waystone from thids some examples of LL grinds commonly done and invited noobs/lowbies as leechers). encouraging vets to farm LLs for tokens redeemable for something of value to them sounds great at first but might be bit more problematic or even counter-productive. [troll]i don't know what happened to people just investing in the future by teaching new players in a meaningful way, not mainly offering "xp only" or "<hs/ms/waystone> reserved" leechfests (driven by a boxing vet usually)[/troll]. new players with weak/at-level ("underlevelled" even, compared to the L60+ vets) toons are more of a hindrance than a help in virtually any LL setting (especially the tanks that are so popular but that's another rant ) so they're often told just sit there and watch, don't get in my way and enjoy the free xp (and loot if it's a run done for express purpose of a key item and what vet cares about the URs and setloot that they have chests of anyway). this has always been a big problem imo, but with low population and 19/20 players playing 2+ toons at a time, and most of those only participating in LLs when they need to tag up a new toon or farm boss loot/key, it's not improving any time soon. i think ppl had mentioned ideas in the past like granting bonus xp (above and beyond the norm, even for shacklers) to help motivate vets to do LLs with noobs. like OP points at, anything that gives a feeling of helping reduce the "grind" feel of PLs would be cool. altho, once again, with players able to grind xp relatively quickly with bots, i'm not sure how important that even is for nearly everyone. maybe something like once you've done LL run X with party of Y# toons within proper level limit, your toon Z gets tagged as a "cool helper" and gets bonus xp% and/or tokens redeemable for <whatever thing> when they do the run again. if your toon is shackled while having this tag, the amount of reward is increased by another %. maybe the tag wears off after 1 month of applicable inactivity. or maybe it's permanent but you can gain higher iterations of it like demi iterations. maybe you need to complete each LL run once per cycle, and the rewards increase a little each iteration (or maybe they just wear out after couple of the same run in same cycle so you have to do em all again to re-activate the rewards by hitting the next iteration. maybe there's a separate set of cycles for different areas: one could be sissy->thids circuit (should be lowest reward since it's the most rewarding by default and must be done anyway), one could be "low LL" group like toyshop, feywild (clear each map to complete? or finally add a boss ), "high LL group" hive, pom, rona? mid group uro, loca, dulv? or by environment/theme "snow LL group" uro dulv, "water group" loca sissy abo, "goodie 2shoe group" rona ely. or maybe it's just per run and itemized iterations too. "i'm at x4 uro helper but only x1 dulv, no one does those, let's get one going" or maybe instead of redeemable tokens there's just a reward per run and less-popular runs have more attractive rewards "no one does hive unless they need a splinter but let's do one to get that kewl thing"
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Post by boho on Jul 21, 2018 6:56:38 GMT
You could do a high-level iteration of existing zones but it’s probably be easier to expand shackling. No shackle = no goodies. Rowan dude could even give out the daily target as part of the shackle. If you kill a boss while shackled, you get an item you can turn in to him for stuff that would benefit someone if your “real” level. This is a very common design pattern in MMOs becaus it works and keeps all levels of a game very lively even when the game becomes extremely top-heavy.
As for botting/multiboxing, yeah, it’s a problem, but to date no one’s definitively figured out if multiboxing is a coping mechanism for dying group games or an actual cause of a group game’s death. My anecdotal feeling is it’s both - rampant multiboxing is just part and parcel of a traditional group MMO death spiral.
I hope the current HG devs have the wisdom to ban multiboxing as part of the EE release (IP exemptions allowed for families ofc), but there’s no reason to do it now with how difficult it is to even start playing HG as-is, let alone the almost non-existent advertising. When there’s a Steam workshop and a server browser to show off on, that calculus changes. What I can tell you is that multi-boxing in a group game scares off new players, either because multiboxing isn’t fun for the vast majority of gamers (it’d be far more common per capita in healthy MMOs if it was), and they inherently assume you “have to” box to play on your terms, and/or because we intuit that widespread multi-boxing means the game isn’t doing too well population-wise, and most people don’t want to board a sinking ship.
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Post by boho on Jul 21, 2018 7:01:13 GMT
Oh, and I focused on runs involving tags because it sounds like those are traditionally the ones new players run into road blocks on since, well, no one wants to do them - either due to burnout (can’t help that without redesign work) or a bad ratio of time:reward (can help that with a fraction of the effort).
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Post by desocupado on Jul 21, 2018 14:24:06 GMT
After giving some thoughts to the matter, and remembering some old suggestions, here some fresh(ish) ideas: Tag system - LL tags could have one instance of the demigodhood bonuses instead of Hells. Just the less party oriented ones (Myconid Depths, Uroboros Peak, Locathah Depths, Zorbgot's Hive, Catacombs of Dulvuroth and Black Pyramid), each grants +1 and having all together grant another +1 to all stats. (Since these runs are quite easy to form up but are outside the Hell's route, they are a good choice for bonuses)
- Getting a tag while under it's level range grants enough XP for a level up (the amount should be equal to the difference between the required XP for the current level and the next)
- When defeating a boss, for each tagger, that boss drop a BUR in 55+ LL runs. Similarly all other LL runs could drop an UR for each tagger.
Loot Tweaks - Higher UR drop chance and less common, uncommon and rare drops, helping with gear progression.
- Set weapon drops are converted into weapon craft components. So player can choose their own weapon type at smith/forge. (Same could be done for hells and beyond)
- Elemental planes have a high likelihood of dropping elemental immunity rings (even UR rings in their deepest layer). Maybe in loot containers or respawning mini bosses.
- Black Pyramid's set drop elemental rings have near BUR level immunity bonuses.
Artifact system - Players can "equip" 2 artifacts (increasing the demand on these runs and their loot). Monsters in higher level areas (60+) have a small adjustment to compensate this power increase (+1/+2 DC). Hence these runs are more likely to be formed.
- Artifacts are not drops but rather character unlocks. Thus they are instanced per player and helping getting their runs done is always incentivized.
- Their unlock chance is marginally greater than the original 25% drop, since they won't be traded (a 66% should do the trick) .
- It could have some sort of swap system where you commit to an artifact choice, but if you change what's equipped, you lose the old one. So if I change my wisdom artifact out, I need to re-acquire it at the Black Pyramid the to have the option to equip Pyramid's Energy again. Maybe completing Hive, Aboleths and Elysium could grant unlimited swap (while requiring 24hours in real time to swap)
- No artifact is a random BUR drop anymore. Most/all LL runs have a artifact reward: (here's a tentative artifact spread)
- Speed artifact drops at Maze of the Ancients.
- Constitution drops at Myconid Depths.
- Save artifacts drops at Locathah Depths.
- Speed artifacts drops at Catacombs of Dulvuroth.
- Strength drops at Uroboros Peak.
- Charisma drops at Pit of Moliation.
- Hive, Aboleths and Elysium could unlock one not yet acquired artifact as reward. (or some new artifacts)
- Speaking of which here are some artifact ideas:
- unlimited CL 50 Divine power and a handful of weapon affinity feats (I'd rather see it increase the affinity bonus to equal to the original focused weapon's AB/dmg/crit bonuses)
- Layer penalty reduction & environment survival feat
- shield armor class in offhand & two weapon attack feat family
- No skill penalty and a stacking +5 to all skills
- +10 Physical damage & 3 AB bonus (not stacking with weapon master)
- ego bonus relevant to your control class
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Post by chirality on Jul 21, 2018 18:40:25 GMT
LL tags could have one instance of the demigodhood bonuses instead of Hells. Just the less party oriented ones (Myconid Depths, Uroboros Peak, Locathah Depths, Zorbgot's Hive, Catacombs of Dulvuroth and Black Pyramid), each grants +1 and having all together grant another +1 to all stats. (Since these runs are quite easy to form up but are outside the Hell's route, they are a good choice for bonuses) Eh... Getting a tag while under it's level range grants enough XP for a level up (the amount should be equal to the difference between the required XP for the current level and the next) Eh... When defeating a boss, for each tagger, that boss drop a BUR in 55+ LL runs. Similarly all other LL runs could drop an UR for each tagger. Thumbs up Higher UR drop chance and less common, uncommon and rare drops, helping with gear progression. Not sure I understand this? Set weapon drops are converted into weapon craft components. So player can choose their own weapon type at smith/forge. (Same could be done for hells and beyond) Interesting but pretty radical overhaul, dunno bout this.. Elemental planes have a high likelihood of dropping elemental immunity rings (even UR rings in their deepest layer). Maybe in loot containers or respawning mini bosses. Thumbs up Black Pyramid's set drop elemental rings have near BUR level immunity bonuses. Big thumbs up Players can "equip" 2 artifacts (increasing the demand on these runs and their loot). "Fresh-ish" Yeah, no. Artifacts are not drops but rather character unlocks. Thus they are instanced per player and helping getting their runs done is always incentivized. Their unlock chance is marginally greater than the original 25% drop, since they won't be traded (a 66% should do the trick) . It could have some sort of swap system where you commit to an artifact choice, but if you change what's equipped, you lose the old one. So if I change my wisdom artifact out, I need to re-acquire it at the Black Pyramid the to have the option to equip Pyramid's Energy again. Maybe completing Hive, Aboleths and Elysium could grant unlimited swap (while requiring 24hours in real time to swap) Interesting. Bit radical but I kinda like it. Dem zots doe.... No artifact is a random BUR drop anymore. Most/all LL runs have a artifact reward tbh i never really understood why saves/dex/con were random bur drops. not a pretty system and could def be stuck in some run. (speaking of saves arti, when's this ever gonna get slight buff) unlimited CL 50 Divine power and a handful of weapon affinity feats (I'd rather see it increase the affinity bonus to equal to the original focused weapon's AB/dmg/crit bonuses) yeah, no.
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Post by desocupado on Jul 21, 2018 22:29:50 GMT
Better quality in item drops in LL. I'd say Common, Uncommon and Rare items are trash even at level 40.
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A +2 would make people go for the tags with their characters. It's just 6 runs (take less time than Hell's 9 runs per cycle). And because those runs can be done by groups of 4 level appropriate characters it's way easier to form up. Having a good XP dump with each tag done at an appropriate level would help reduce the dragging and help progress quicker by doing level appropriate tags/areas. The way artifact drops currently work makes it less engaging to party up.
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Post by dopplegang on Jul 21, 2018 23:30:04 GMT
Metamagic pandects or something of that nature would be a nice thing to see in game as well. I could fix that forgotten extend feat, and they could possibly even soften the demand for shield pandect.
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Post by tega091 on Jul 22, 2018 6:44:44 GMT
The saves arti is not a random BUR drop. It already has a run it drops from.
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Post by chirality on Jul 22, 2018 7:20:42 GMT
yes, and given which run it is, more reason to buff it.
then again, just as well it's out of BUR loot table. yuuuge improvement.
safely put in timeout where most ppl never have to worry about seeing it except when they open a bank chest
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Post by jeanhelixü on Jul 22, 2018 8:09:56 GMT
So some of the suggestions like tags aren't very helpful because most characters have done all the LL runs once for tags for various bits of gear while leveling or just to do them once. The other issue is that doing it once and being done doesn't take that long, it doesn't provide continuing motivation.
Adding things like Canopics is going to be way too much reward for easy runs that are way easier than Limbo.
The idea of giving big amounts of bonus XP is pretty reasonable though as getting to level 80 is quite the grind. Something like if you shackle it increases your XP gain to if you were actually that level would help. Maybe with a multiplier if someone in the party is actually that level or lacking tag for that run.
Though another possibility that occurs to me is that there are consumables from Thids that are very useful to end game runs. Adding more consumables like that to LL runs would help in making people run them more. Spreading Biorejuvenators and Stones of Succor out to drop from other runs, or moving the Slave Waystone to its own run instead of being in Thids the same place as the Hellstone. Maybe something like a stack of 10 Netherese Power Orbs or weapon buff potions dropping in LL runs would be a decent incentive. The special short duration weapon buff items that do infliction on hit might be particularly good in this role by doing something even in parties, and if availability was increased might see more use on runs in general. Consumables provide an incentive to do it many times rather than just once per character like a normal tag.
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Post by buddhamind on Jul 22, 2018 14:06:58 GMT
Give the keys like Hellstones and Slave Waystones a small chance to drop randomly from any LL run. Higher chances for more difficult runs.
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Post by chirality on Jul 22, 2018 18:30:16 GMT
considering how farming LL runs for artis for % chance is a giant bag of sux, there's no way i'd be interested to repeat random LL runs for a chance of hs/ws. thids they're guaranteed, it's fast and easy, and it's really solid xp for the time/"difficulty".
% chance drop on other LL runs would be a nice perk if ur already motivated to run them over and over, but imo it's not enough incentive alone to do that in the first place.
same with canos, sounds great, but if it's some paltry amt, why bother when p1 is ez as hell (pun intended) anyway. if it's not a paltry amt, rip limbo, i'd do 2-3 LL run cano farms in time it takes to farm waystone->p1 (which is basically 2-3 LL runs)
also consider that most LL runs are legit soloable. thids isn't cuz lever and it unlocks limbo with ws so i think it's fine as is. else the whole "u need 2+ ppl for this later-game content" principle kind of goes out the window (well it already did with boxing, nother rant tho)
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