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Post by condude on Sept 16, 2018 19:43:40 GMT
Hey guys,
So, I had this idea, inspired by a different game, but potentially applicable to HG. In that other game (I don't know if I'm allowed to name it for comparison's sake), the most played mode wasn't the normal mode, but a separate mode that had a different quirk to it, where characters (this surprised me a ton) were moved to the normal mode every half year (or so) to allow for a new mode to be started.
The idea would be to have one server have an interesting set of global rules applied, and characters from that are moved to normal HG whenever it changes (say, yearly). I'm making this suggestion under the assumption that global changes would be easy to make from a dev standpoint, so not many zots would be required.
Examples of possible challenges might include:
1. Monsters deal 75% more damage, all loot has a 3% chance of spawning one tier higher than it would normally (e.g. R->UR). 1% of BUR->XR transition for obvious reasons.
2. All monsters deal 5% of incoming damage as unresistable KB, 25% more loot spawns
etc.
The benefits would be that it gives a challenge to vets that can't just be solved by throwing more gold/loot at it so that they can actually test their skills, and it might give ambitious newer players a chance to start on an even playing field (albeit a tougher one). Plus, newbie zones would see a lot more play.
Maybe I'm wildly off-base with the suggestion, or it might take too much dev time, but just pointing out an interesting idea that I've seen work well!
Condude
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Post by gladi8or on Sept 16, 2018 21:46:40 GMT
I would argue that given the current ability to choose between normal and hard mode in Limbo does present the same opportunities that you suggest here. While Limbo loot is arguably not the greatest, canopics have been created as a way to present new challenges in acquiring loot and sub races. Going to Limbo with larger parties increases the difficulty, as it does as you increase levels of demi and prince wins. Full party runs do challenge vets in a new way. Please understand I'm not trying to shoot your idea down, I find it interesting, but I think it is, in a way, already being done.
I would, however, love to see Limbo Part 2 broken into 2 separate runs, along the lines of parts 1-3 in abyss. But, that's a different argument entirely.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 16, 2018 23:33:15 GMT
Doesn't seem feasible with current population (and necessary codding effort).
However I do think the game don't need goals that a person regularly playing 2-3 times a week need to spend years to achieve.
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Post by chirality on Sept 17, 2018 4:07:32 GMT
i think it's a cool idea. main problem is that, as a whole (aka outside of certain guild schedules/circles...or is that the whole?  dun dun dunnnn), hg struggles to get hell+ activity, period. considering there's barely enough population to even properly play "normal" HG atm, i really don't think splitting the playerbase in any form would be productive. ]The benefits would be that it gives a challenge to vets that can't just be solved by throwing more gold/loot at it so that they can actually test their skills, and it might give ambitious newer players a chance to start on an even playing field (albeit a tougher one). Plus, newbie zones would see a lot more play. hg might as well be a cyclical event mode server anyway at this point; just reset the entire vault every year  |
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Post by condude on Sept 17, 2018 4:08:06 GMT
I would argue that given the current ability to choose between normal and hard mode in Limbo does present the same opportunities that you suggest here. While Limbo loot is arguably not the greatest, canopics have been created as a way to present new challenges in acquiring loot and sub races. Going to Limbo with larger parties increases the difficulty, as it does as you increase levels of demi and prince wins. Full party runs do challenge vets in a new way. Please understand I'm not trying to shoot your idea down, I find it interesting, but I think it is, in a way, already being done. I would, however, love to see Limbo Part 2 broken into 2 separate runs, along the lines of parts 1-3 in abyss. But, that's a different argument entirely. Interesting take on it. I've never been to limbo (school/life ramped up recently), but it serves a different function. My idea would be to give new players an even playing field while giving vets a fun place to play as well.
As for deso's concerns, I agree that playerbase might be an issue, but I don't think it's insurmountable. Remember, unlike HC, these characters would all be playable in normal mode after the event was over, meaning that playing it would give you toons in the lategame too. So partitioning of the playerbase wouldn't actually occur.
As for devtime, it might require more zots than I'm thinking, but it might actually be really easy. If it's as simple as modifying a couple of global variables, it might only take an hour or two. If it's not... then your point stands.
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Post by condude on Sept 17, 2018 4:10:15 GMT
i think it's a cool idea. main problem is that, as a whole (aka outside of certain guild schedules/circles...or is that the whole? dun dun dunnnn), hg struggles to get hell+ activity, period. considering there's barely enough population to even properly play "normal" HG atm, i really don't think splitting the playerbase in any form would be productive.
Does it necessarily partition the server though? I get that it's a different place to play, but these toons would eventually turn into normal ones. If it brings more incentive for players (especially noobs) to make characters and run them up, then it might make those runs easier to form in the long run.
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Post by condude1 on Sept 17, 2018 6:47:00 GMT
Additional point I thought up: If this were implemented, it would give an alternative for small groups: Legendary runs in the challenge mode would probably have a competitive risk/reward ratio to normal hells if, say, my first example were in play (maybe 10% tiered up items makes more sense though. Getting one BUR and a bunch of URs from doing an ubered up desert/dusty isn't unreasonable), for example.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 17, 2018 10:56:49 GMT
If progression was changed in a way a person could make 4 characters full power/achievement over a commitment like I described above (8-20 a week, for a year) hours it probably wouldn't need to have a non permanent vault.
Of course those must take in account mission failure and difficulty to encounter people with the same needs (I.e. level and power must progress differently).
It would make player's characters more memorable through a year (season).
-"Deso got a Herald, a Threader and an Assassin this season".
Maybe tags could be account-bound during that year and people get more personal loot and/or xp for helping without getting a tag.
Maybe some zone loses their tag during a season but net way better loot during a given season.
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Post by condude on Sept 17, 2018 16:22:16 GMT
If progression was changed in a way a person could make 4 characters full power/achievement over a commitment like I described above (8-20 a week, for a year) hours it probably wouldn't need to have a non permanent vault. Of course those must take in account mission failure and difficulty to encounter people with the same needs (I.e. level and power must progress differently). It would make player's characters more memorable through a year (season). -"Deso got a Herald, a Threader and an Assassin this season". Maybe tags could be account-bound during that year and people get more personal loot and/or xp for helping without getting a tag. Maybe some zone loses their tag during a season but net way better loot during a given season. The two bottom ideas would work well (If I understand them correctly) with the idea of the mode. I'm not recommending changing the power curve, however - that's a different discussion entirely. I'm not saying it's a bad one, but it's outside the scope of this potential change. |
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Post by woqued on Sept 21, 2018 8:45:55 GMT
Difficult and completely server changing idea. Not necessarily for the worse, but consider tierchanging drop mechanics would probably be pretty demoralizing for those who have now been farming Limbo for years for hard-earned XRs meanwhile some people swoop in from a special mode play of a few weeks getting XR gear from Hells, Abyss and Rona only to wait a bit to transfer their XRs to normal mode and continue never stepping foot into Limbo.. Personally I don't really care for the Limbo grind -at all- (The run is great, but only source of XR bleh boh gg only so much of repeating one thing for progression) so a thing such as this could very well bring me back into the game for a time.
.. But whether it's *fair* is questionable and has been relevant to the devs as a point when making changes to the game, and it can be argued whether it's a worthy use of "zots" compared to devving new areas or bringing underused classes to a more pleasant place or a number of other things they may find fun or interesting to do. For me personally a change such as this could be a rather intriguing prospect to pursue from devving pov but to each their own.
I do like the concept of event-based challenge/loot modifications that last for a time period perhaps even in specific zones only. Similar to DM run events; DM puts wrenches into the run and then grants extra chests at end - always liked those. Same idea, except without constant DM presence and instead making it apparent in loot ables and spawn triggers for a time. I.E adding mobs to boss fights where they don't usually belong and so forth. Example: double Sibriex at Jubilex spawn; or a surprise mf triple Eolian at Limbo pt1 bossfight or first spawn of map 4; adding certain mobs to random spawn tables or significantly boosting random spawn sizes or adding proper mob poop loot to first maps, etc. Tradeoff of getting some extra rewards - quadruple xp, special pet summoning stones similar to the DM rewards, simply more loot such as challenge mode Thids granting double end chest rewards so 4 succors 2 hellstones and so forth and perhaps even higher tier loot if the challenge level is appropriately higher, but I'd be wary of the concept of getting higher tier stuff from easier places.
Sidenote I would love the idea of mixing different runs' mobs as an event thing if not for them fighting each other instead of the players, though a fancy Death Match between monsters from different realms and players could be fun for a time Oinos style except in a proper run instead of an aimless farmzone where time stands still.
Scaling loot and difficulty would be a great way to bring a breath of fresh air to now perhaps outdated or otherwise nearly (or completely.. hello elemental planes) abandoned zones as well as bringing those aversive to Limbo into XR gear range as long as the difficulty is compareable to that of Limbo even if with different mobs and abilities. Edit: I've said it before but I think challenge mode Abyss (especially Gaping Maw pt1 and 3, muchlove) , Elysium, Aboleths, Hells, Dulvuroth, Beholders, Myconids, etc with upgraded rewards and challenge mode prince/pelor/asmo + miniboss encounters dropping XR tier gear would be the best thing for replay experience.
The mechanic exists for this in the form of p4-p5 mobs but whether that would feel good to play in practice is another story due to feeling either
*lazy because it would be too simple, doesn't change gameplay only challenge level although not changing the feel of the gameplay is a plus too if you really love a certain run for the atmosphere/mechanics but feel it's too easy and unrewarding
-or-
*annoying because hitting/casting into 12301230 ac, saves, sr, concealment isn't fun because you can't outplay it just grit through while half the party is makin coffee while a nigh unkillable ac/regen/save/sr/conceal monster is waiting for eradicate or a few desperate tanks to chew through or that one caster going through third rest of hoping to beat sr and for the mob to roll 1 simultaneously
.. As such (to me) changing spawn tables seems like a better way to go about it by creating more varied and unexpectable encounters requiring you to think on your feet and learn new tactics, spellbooks and group class combinations for different runs.
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Post by condude1 on Sept 21, 2018 21:05:12 GMT
Very few XRs would be introduced this way. The recommendation I made was for 1% of BURs to turn into XRs. In a mode that gives you only a year to create characters. And where mobs hit way harder. It would be much more expedient to run Limbo for XRs than use this for them IMO.
With that being said, up-tiered loot isn't integral to this idea, merely an incentive I was considering using. Alternately, up-tiering could avoid BUR-XR transition.
I like your options as well! Decreasing the predictability of fights adds a fun dynamic that brings back a lot of skill related challenges. Your idea of certain critical monsters double or triple-spawning is fun, as is adding in a small chance for spawns to get doubled (or tripled), in exchange for a guaranteed BUR drop (or something similar).
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Post by woqued on Sept 21, 2018 23:28:58 GMT
Very few XRs would be introduced this way. The recommendation I made was for 1% of BURs to turn into XRs. In a mode that gives you only a year to create characters. And where mobs hit way harder. It would be much more expedient to run Limbo for XRs than use this for them IMO. With that being said, up-tiered loot isn't integral to this idea, merely an incentive I was considering using. Alternately, up-tiering could avoid BUR-XR transition. I like your options as well! Decreasing the predictability of fights adds a fun dynamic that brings back a lot of skill related challenges. Your idea of certain critical monsters double or triple-spawning is fun, as is adding in a small chance for spawns to get doubled (or tripled), in exchange for a guaranteed BUR drop (or something similar). Yeah I'll agree the 1% doesn't feel too over the top. Would still require significant farming and less optimal than Limbo for sure, as long as mindless every day Oinos farming doesn't credit XRs. Putting so much emphasis on the Xr stuff was an unneeded sidestep from the idea, sorry about that. .. However pulling this off would either require some neat scripting for zone-wide effects or tinkering with mobs one by one specifically and that seems to be a fairly large undertaking. Not sure if creating a few eventbased mob templates and adding them to certain run spawn tables would be a big chore or not. Applying to all zones would likely be a huge chore no matter what. While we are dreaming, other potential effects/rewards: Effects:
Arcane Might: enemy spell casters get +x DC and receive 3-4 casts of the Greater Dispel or another neat and devious spell.
Area penalties are doubled but group is treated as having 0 demi/prince/whatever count.
Fiery wrath: All mobs inflict 3% fire damage on hit. [or any other element / exotic variant]
All monsters and players are under effect of -30% concealment while in zone.
Summoning spree: mini bosses gain ability to summon scary monsters (but no other summoners).
Godawful Harpies: regular spawns are invaded by harpies which curse the party.
Exploding corpses: upon death monsters trigger x damage to targets within medium range.
Muscle Bulge: monsters gain damage and regeneration.
Rotting stench: monsters channel their inner lemure and gain their scripts.
Shadow warpers: monsters gain the ability to teleport to targets within x range.
Immortals: specific monsters spawn with contingency.
Infesting parasites: players need to save vs ekolid infestation every x turns.
End boss X gains the Guardian of the Stone heal on green poop mechanic.
Styx flood: save vs amnesia zonewide.
Fright: specific mobs gain Death Knight terrifying aura.
Players and/or monsters gain buff X every X rounds/turns. Could be serendipity, lesser restore, divine might, divine favor, healing circle, circle of doom, prayer, aura of vitality, you name it depending on lore and mood and chaotic/divine nature of the zone.
Summons gain bonus X. Could be lvl / ab / ac / dc / saves / whatever.
Monsters gain 50% fire immunity and lose 50% cold immunity (or any other types, could affect players and/or monsters).
Monsters spawn with WRACK on them.
Penalties are halved.
Unfun and ragequit inducing stuff:
Stat drops including divine spellcaster stats and other forgetfulness type abilities that clear spellbooks from their spells (not amnesia; but wipes spell slots that need to be re-inserted).
SR +x modifier.
Concealment +x% modifier.
Pickpocketing monsters periodically spawning near players and running away.
Zonewide statcheck disables that you can't be immune to.
Rewards are a bit trickier. There is a certain feeling of achievement and potentially completion when attaining set items, so making them too easy to attain is bad, but some extremely rare ones can on the other hand feel demoralizing if they feel mandatory and are mostly farmable/farmed by multiboxers.
Obvious rewards: simply more XP and general zone-appropriate loot chests/poop.
Guaranteed tier X ego item // guaranteed augmenters of sufficient power compareable to challenge.
Double instance opening keys.
Increased artifact droprate.
10x (or other amount) of convenient utility item X (bios, stone of succors, invulnerability potions, divine might 55 potions, bbod rods, res rods but specifically avoid adding trap drops in mix for the challenge rewards)
1-2 extra set drops per boss/chest including db/abyss/etc weapons, caster slot items, highly coveted aboleth end rewards and so forth.
Making a zone drop only certain item types i.e blocking certain items from dropping for specific classes to have extra incentive to do those places. For maximum nasty combine with caster unfriendly modifiers for extra caster loot.
^obviously many of these are so high rewards that they would have to be quite short-lived or extremely, excessively hard to do; even with the potential of trap combinations such as ranger ego on sorc belt or dev crit scythe on a druid staff and so forth. |
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Post by condude on Sept 22, 2018 5:26:43 GMT
I was thinking global changes might be easier than you'd expect. Say, knock 25% off character resists (By modifying player hide). I could be off base about the time requirements, but that's why I mentioned global changes rather than specific tweaking of mobs and stuff.
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Post by Enius the White on Sept 23, 2018 16:56:53 GMT
Interesting ideas. Any seamless, global way to refresh existing content, allowing both new and old players to progress and interact there, could be a significant plus. The underlying reason is the math. New content/areas are always amazing, and add life to the respective level range. However, every new area spreads the available player-base over a larger world area, thereby reducing player density. This diminishes run forming efficiency universally, making progression to the later levels/areas more difficult.
If this idea was viable, and implemented, we could expect a short term reduction in end-game activity, as some end-game players are incentivized to revisit the complete level progression. The medium-longer term result should be more new players successfully progressing via this higher leveling traffic flow, and an overall increase in player density.
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dun dun dunnnn), hg struggles to get hell+ activity, period. considering there's barely enough population to even properly play "normal" HG atm, i really don't think splitting the playerbase in any form would be productive.
