Lance, Merc GS and 1/2 cloud giant need a reason...

[AW O'Reilly]

These weapons are inferior in damage to weapons that are 2 sizes lower. (bastard/katana)

You have to be Huge to wield them at all> ( -1 to AB/AC - really)

A gnome with a bastard sword will out damage a half cloud giant with a Mercurial GS the size of tree.

I see the talk about revising 2h damage multipliers... this seems to miss the problem.

1. The problem is with "cheese" 2h characters running about in their 'jammies owning the melee mobs in limbo - scale limbo mobs?
2. Scaling 2h damage across the board makes "real" 2h characters even less plausible - if that were even possible.

Just scale the modifiers by char size so that the -1 AB/AC is offset. There should be a payoff to being having a large, ugly, character that is difficult to maneuver and has gimped AC and AB.

Recommendation:

Make Merc GS and Lance 2d10 20/x4.
Scale 2 handed damage based on character size such that the downsides are offset with SOME benefit.

e.g.

You are a gnome (+1 ab/ac) wielding your 2h rapier --> 1.15 str bonus
You are a half elf wielding your 2h greatsword --> 1.20 str bonus
You are an UGLY AS FORK half cloud giant (-1 ac/ab) wielding a Mercurial GS --> 1.30 str bonus.

I threw in the extra 0.05 as a "porkchop" to tie around the neck of the 1/2 Cloud Giant so that the dogs will party with it - since they are less popular than dragon form IMO.

[chirality]

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25155/huge-weapons

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25009/huge-weapons-lovin

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24871/huge-weapon-base-damage

[arek]

O'Reilly, I like your idea, but I think that such a change needs to be part of a larger overhaul to 2hf in general, if it happens at all.

With that in mind, here's a suggestion for a change that can be implemented independently of said overhaul: The mercurial greatsword and lance are both currently 1d12, 20/x4 weapons. By comparison, the Scythe is 2d8, 20/x4, and the Bastard Sword is 2d8, 19-20/x3. Base damage averages 6.5 for Huge weapons and 9 for scythe/bsword. All are exotic, and the huge weapons are, additionally, niche weapons atm. Here's a suggestion for the baseline: Either change Huge weapon base damage to 2d10 (11 avg), or make them Martial weapons (they're just a larger spear and greatsword, after all), and either increase the size of the Maul to Huge or make a "Mercurial Maul" that's huge with the same base damage and crit profile as the other weapons (or Martial and 1d12, 20/x2 if the others stay exotic, to give large toons a non-exotic option). If you're out of "weapon space" to add a new weapon and don't want to modify Mauls, you could put the "Mercurial Maul" in the currently-unused Double-Pick slot (while we could use a piercing weapon option in double weapons, 2wf needs to be made viable again first, and even then double-scimitar or double-axe could be repurposed for that).

As for a more comprehensive update to 2hf, 2hf should always have been implemented with feats, much like 2wf is. Locking the bonus behind 3 feats, adding 10%, 10%, and 20% extra damage (first, second and third feats - yes, it's backloaded, intentionally), with Shapestrong Barbarians getting half the benefit, and the first feat being given to some/all of the large races (to offset the ab/ac pens and the fugly/broken looks), would go a long way to fixing this.

--arek

[desocupado]

What if Huge races -1 to AB/AC was removed, as would be tiny's +1 to AB/AC?

Some of such races could get +2 str/con and +2 dex instead respectively.

[madzapper]

Sept 24, 2018 4:44:17 GMT AW O'Reilly said:

These weapons are inferior in damage to weapons that are 2 sizes lower. (bastard/katana)

Just scale the modifiers by char size so that the -1 AB/AC is offset. There should be a payoff to being having a large, ugly, character that is difficult to maneuver and has gimped AC and AB.

...

You are an UGLY AS FORK half cloud giant (-1 ac/ab) wielding a Mercurial GS --> 1.30 str bonus.

Just a quick comment that the movability was addressed with a token that you can use to change yourself into a cute little fluffy cloud. Ugliness is subjective though, so it might still be ugly to you, but maneuverability should have been addressed with that change. This seems a different issue to me than the damage aspects.

[chirality]

yeah, the funny thing about the fluffy cloud shapechange was that i used to focus on how annoying the size issue was in play. min/max wise, even before weap update rekt huge weap base dmg, they still suxed, and the race always suxed, but hey, cool factor!

instead, without worrying about getting stuck while soloing or being in everyone's way on a run, now i focus on how trashy huge weapons/cloud giant is on paper.

_____________________________

i'd also like to point out that if huge weapons were to no longer be exotic, it would remove the need/point of cloud giant's bonus feat being wasted on exo prof, which could open up some other feat in its place, and make a tiny yet oh-so-important difference when paper building.

also, goes without saying, but if LSA Listen was ever changed, it'd make a huge improvement to the race (amongst others ofc).