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Post by woqued on Feb 13, 2019 13:03:51 GMT
Small rangers with 2h multiplier are an infestation. Dualweapon ranger would be cool. Sadly dual weapons take away ranger AC but 2handing an op weapon as small size doesn't.
Suggestion: fix it! Only dualweapons, trident/spear, dualwielding, ranged weapons count for ranger ac.
PS. Better yet remove dual-wielding from the game to avoid the buffing dilemma and let everyone use dual weapons n take exo prof req away from them. Yay! jk PPS. The change on Chaos Rocs is ass! Screw ranger/epic mandatory treatment on a mob! Other than that really like most of the changes since I've been away, except it's too easy. Nerf 2h multiplier to 30% and cap Monk splash ac at 8 unless you're a CC monk or divine caster class! less jk
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Post by manuka on Feb 13, 2019 19:31:18 GMT
Or dual wield could be buffed, it also sucks for say a kama monk
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Post by woqued on Feb 13, 2019 21:04:52 GMT
Primary beef of the thread: dual-weapon ranger would be cool, but doesn't work, can't utilize cool ranger feats. Sad! Especially when midget rangers with 2h 40% longsword/bsword/whatever go around butchering the realms with no skin in the game, makes it feel extra bad. manuka: Ya I agree dualwielding could use a buff, although I think it's more of an issue of 2h being somewhat too strong at the moment, not dualwielding inherently sucking outside the buffing pain (which is very significant). 40% multiplier to all types is vaaaastly superior to dualwielders; in particular with all the sources of extra-attacks we got going atm. Dual wielding gets an indirect buff if 2h gets nerfed since we like to play what is best, and dual-wielding is far from that, though dual-weapon users are "viable". Dual-wielding was *more* viable before there were so many sources of extra attacks available which are vastly superior with 2h multiplier or with simply lesser amounts of attacks; your offhand attacks don't receive any benefit from the extra attack sources we like to use and you start to have major issues with AB, especially on many of the 3/4 bab classes that would like to dual-wield (like the Monk). Comparison: 4 base attacks + 2 offhand attacks vs 4 base attacks; 40% multiplier doesn't look "too OP" at all. Now with [4 base + 1 haste + 1 wrap/tragibelt]*1,4 vs [4 base + 1 haste + 1 wrap/tragibelt + 2 offhand attacks] *1,0 after steep feat investment with less ab... Not even a contest. Now when we look at including harper boots, mass haste, wc haste, cleric psk:ench into the mix - which make the whole thing vastly worse for dualwielders, we get a good reasoning why pretty much nobody plays dualwielders unless it's a dualweapon and the only xr weapon they got, or for roleplaying points. Excluding DR's effect in multipliers' favour, multiplier at 30% for the fairly common 6 attacks per round would make sense, yet make them draw ahead with outside party buffs. If we look at boss fights with mass haste spam and such, even 20% multiplier would be fine for 2handers. This is all outside DR consideration too, just playing the numbers game assuming multiplier applies to all types at various values. If multiplier only applied to physical, this would all be very different even at 40% (or higher?) and with XR weapons that could change the metagame on it's head with only dual-wielders running around, who knows.
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Post by manuka on Feb 13, 2019 21:59:58 GMT
So the main reason i'm against nerfing 2handed and would rather buff dual weild is that most people already find p2hard/easy too long.
Nerfing 2handed damage rather than buffing dual wield damage would simply make the run longer.
I suppose you could nerf 2handed damage and also make the run faster.
But it probs takes most teams over 3h to do a p2, and even min maxed partys like profiteers or your team can only do a p2 hard in 1h40 min to 2h 30min which to me seems like its in a good place at the moment, i wouldnt like to push that into the 3-h range
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Post by woqued on Feb 13, 2019 22:17:06 GMT
Ya well the run was made to be long, and theres no denying that it is really rewarding now, long as it is. I am also against pt2s lasting longer than they do now - I mean I among others stopped playing because the grind was too much only recently made something of a comeback and have liked most of the changes. I also dunno if maxed out tanks with XR weapons aren't crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraazy strong - enough to be too much so. Have a hard time seeing a damage shifter as useful when comapred to a 2h tank in almost any circumstance in the game currently, same applies to the various archer types. Then again the runs are so long we avoid 1h users like cancer because of the low damage, just because the runs take too long with them unless they're utility gods, and even then we try to make 'em 2h so.. :/ .. And I really don't know how I would buff dual-wielders either. There was talk of a LL feat netting +1 extra off-hand attack... But that would be barely enough, and requires even more feat investment from already feat-tight builds who already struggle with ab and/or stats - and implementing the feat could be hard work, and other ways of making dual-wielding viable requires even more hard work if it goes down to tuning mobs and stuff to accommodate dual-wielding like low dr and giving mobs E-Dodge which is better against less strong attacks than many weak ones and dropping their ac and so on. There's also the possibility that there are many ways of making the run faster that we aren't utilizing yet, or that could be fixed by buffing something other than dual-wielding/2h dmg; unused non-high damage instakill mechanisms like Assassins, CS Rangers, pariah/druid/herald something instakill mechanics and so on that could take the place of just hulksmash tank dmg. We use that because it is an easy and efficient way, tested and true. .. And for me personally just the weapon buffing business and getting multiple xr weapons of same type or crafting all those weapons for dualwielding is turnoff enough to never go there outside the double-weapons, unless they are op compared to 2h and then I would be annoyed and use them anyway. But it's not like dualwielding is the only one getting the short end of the stick; 1h is too, and that is also a part of the reason why I think 2h multiplier is too much, and so is monk ac and limbo pt2 length/mob durability outside that option. SUCH DERAIL! MY GOD! I JUST FEEL LIKE RANGER SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE DUAL-WEAPONS AND BE ENCOURAGED TO DO SO OVER BEING A MIDGET BONE CRUSHER with a slashing weapon obviously
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 22:37:35 GMT
Adjusting damage up for duel wield or down for 2H is fine either way as long as run time isn’t adversely impacted to achieve this balance.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 14, 2019 14:32:28 GMT
If multiplier only applied to physical, this would all be very different even at 40% (or higher?) and with XR weapons that could change the metagame on it's head with only dual-wielders running around, who knows. I find this idea the most appealing. Since dual wielders are mostly dexters, this seems pretty appropriate. I'd also remove the ab loss for dual wielding tough. Heck there could be ab gain.
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Post by gladi8or on Feb 18, 2019 18:13:35 GMT
I have posted about this before as well. I'd like to see other weapons available other than trident and spear for rangers. However, I do like the idea of using dual weap for ranger, or any other toon for that matter. Here's my suggestion: the best weapons currently do 1x10 damage with a crit modifier of 3 or 4. Perhaps make dual wielding automatically combine a damage to 1d10 x4 when added together. With that being said, Limbo pt 2 almost requires xr weapons to be effective and they are so rare, it's nearly impossible to find 2 of the same weapon, let alone one. Perhaps then, the advantage of dual wielding could be 2d10 x4 or remain the same at 1d10 x4 but add 2 extra attacks per round. Otherwise no one is going to recarn a 2hander for dual, or even build one for that matter, because of how difficult they are to require. It would be great if dual weapons were used for more than using up all the caster's buffs.
I realise this doesn't solve or answer the problem with little mini rangers running around slaying the mod, but perhaps it could give all dual weap tanks a boost that matches the current damage of 2 handers. If nothing else, it would provide more options.
I posted before that double weaps would be nice for rangers to use without losing the ac bonus as well, but as long as they are 2d6 damage dealers, no one will use them. Maybe this would help?
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Post by woqued on Feb 19, 2019 11:56:31 GMT
Few points:
2d6 vs 1d10 is not the issue (I prefer 2d6 over 1d10 anyway, even though it's quite counting peanuts) rather its the 40% for free vs 2 offhand attacks with feat investment, where the 40% multiplier synergizes well with all the extra sources of attacks we have while the offhand attacks do not, and the obvious issue of mobs being sturdy so extra instances that need to fight DR are unwanted, especially if they have a hard(er) time breaching it in the first place.
XR weapons are not even remotely required for limbo pt2; not for defeating it anyway. Only for farming it over and over and over without going insane in the process, but if you just want the tag for sets or something else - limbo pt1 weapons work great and db weapons perform just fine. Even for doing it every now and again really. We ran a loooong time with very few if any XR weapons (I still don't have one I could use without borrowing) and the run seems more tame than before. People should go there more, it's not so bad.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 14:56:16 GMT
Our group was doing P2 Hard Modes for awhile and only one of us had XR weapons. As pointed out, P1 and DB are fine and if you’re finding that isn’t enough it’s probably the builds of the tanks and not the weapons holding you back is my thought.
I’ll admit I don’t know much about duel wielding. Would a solution, unsure how practical, just be to throw a % damage buff, albeit smaller than the 40% 2H weapons get to fix it? 10-15%? That would aid in packets getting large enough.
I feel like 2H damage is in a really good place. Parity between casters and tanks being able to contribute to run time everywhere but limbo, but even there if it’s more human and less boxed toons is good. Nurfing 2H damage ruins that and hurts run times.
The solution needs to be fixing duel wielding. Do damage buffs achieve that?
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Post by Terankar on Feb 19, 2019 19:02:02 GMT
I don't know if this is possible, but here goes.
For duel wield you gain a ton of attacks. But you lose out on damage anyways, since your attacks reduce with 5 AB, just like everything else.
Currently you duel wield and get at least 3 attacks at full AB.
How about changing this with duel wield? Make more attacks hit at maximum AB.
Feat: Bladedancer requirements: improved two weapon fighting, +16 BAB, 40 STR/DEX/CHA, Adds 1 attack at full AB to each hand when duel wielding.
LL version Adds crit multiplier and crit range by one, when duel wielding
Paragon version Adds 1 additional attack to each hand when dual wielding and you no longer get any penalties for duel wielding weapons appropriate to your character's size.
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Feb 19, 2019 19:35:30 GMT
What about an LL/Paragon feat that gives you monk attack progression with dual wielding for any applicable weapon?
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Post by gladi8or on Feb 20, 2019 0:24:22 GMT
Dustbone and Limbo 1 weaps do work well, that isn't the issue. I realise I said xr weaps are required in pt 2, but what I meant is they are required to maximize damage. We all want to get the most out of our toons and would rather have the best weaps to make the run quicker, and for me at least, more fun.
I agree that 2 handed damage is good right now. I'd like to see dual wielders getting the same fate. Ultimately, I'd like to see all weaps having the same or similar fate otherwise a lot of players will avoid them and stay with 2 handers. (insert wind fire wheel jokes here) I would never suggest nerfing the 2 hander damage.
As woqued stated, it would be nice to dual wield and keep the ac. I just like having more building options, and honestly, I think some dual wielders look cool.
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Post by simpetar on Feb 20, 2019 7:27:51 GMT
Adding more attacks per round will work only so far, 12 attacks per round is the hard-coded cap in the game and I imagine lifting it will be quite a pain. Some builds can already hit that number, the reason you don't see many of them is because they face the same DR problem as other dual wielders (e.g. CoT with monk level and 19+ bab dual wielding nunchaku: 7 main hand + 2 off-hand + 1 haste + 1 divine wrath + 1 Wrap). Also, it is less relevant these days than in the past, but imagine the kb from 12 APR, especially anarchic or psionic damage or something similarly juicy. It seems as making more hits connect and/or hit harder makes better sense than adding extra attacks.
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Post by chainlink on Feb 20, 2019 7:53:30 GMT
Very valid point about KB, its not like you are a caster with an active damage causing AoE who can just spam heals to ameliorate the KB damage. Its not like 2h builds get something for nothing they are giving up a a valuable gear slot in return for the extra damage, in fact I'd say that a fist Monk (not that you see many of them these days) comes off worst out of all melee, builds loses the weapon slot, trades bonuses from gloves slot, has to use a torch in the off hand (not many of these you'd choose to use).
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