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Post by simpetar on Mar 6, 2019 13:24:36 GMT
These gloves, as they exist now, have no valid reason to occupy Ssendam's loot table. Here is why: 1. Compare Fracas to their closest match, Duelist's Destiny from PoM. 10% physical immunities instead of 5% (on par with LL set loot, or non randomized loot), 18 ac that already comes from nearly every other slot in your equipment and slightly different, arguably more useful skills. That's it. Duelist's Destiny come from comfortably soloable mid range LL run. Heck, you don't have to even be immortal and port before the last map for tag. Fracas on the other hand come from the last boss of hard mode of the toughest run in the game, one that you need well coordinated group of well geared (and probably optimized) players for. 2. The very nature of these gloves is problematic. A build either does dual wield or does not. There is very little middle ground. Characters that use 1h + shield will at best equip these gloves when the opportunity arises, but then again switch back to gloves with real stats. They offer no offensive boost to dual wielders, 2 handers or strength based 1 handers. If you desperately want a dual wielding dexer and don't have the feats for it, relying on Fracas or Duelist's Destiny has issues too, mainly because you give up far too much for not wearing something that offers much better protection, they are subject to be lost on respawn and finally good luck to getting in a p2 hard group in the first place (unless it is a side fun lvl 80 reinc project). Suggestions for oopmh improvement (unless they are removed), to be considered separately or together: 1. Remove the dex > str limitation 2. Wearing these gloves eliminates attack bonus penalty for dual wielding 3. Your LBAB will always be considered as that of a fighter while wearing these gloves (as seen in Claws of the Dragon for instance) 4. Wearing these gloves reduce attack bonus penalty by 5 while using Expertise, Improved Expertise, Power Attack or Improved Power Attack 5. Special power that adds anarchic damage to all attacks for a short time (such as Pyre of Chaos)
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Fracas
Mar 6, 2019 13:58:01 GMT
Post by rainbowdash on Mar 6, 2019 13:58:01 GMT
while i recall that there has already been a thread about those gloves or something, it prolli does not hurt to stress how much I feel cheated every time that item comes up in a lootsplit.
I think in general its a great idea to give dualwielders some love but please, please dont buff them around items, especially not setloot that is aquired with level 65+ areas
That being said I do not like the whole Dex > Str limitation on that. I mean there could even be dualwielding rapier wit toons running around if dualwielding would be any good. I hope it doesnt just scale with a single attribute or for that matter any attribute at all (except str for damagemod and some baseattribute for the ab obviously).
Apart from dualwielding not currently being incentivised by the current meta or the gloves really I think they are incredibly understated even if you could make use of the additional feats. I bur gloves have 10% phys imms and then on top of that more goodies. Also they are augable which is a really big deal for melee toons that use many sets.
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2019 16:45:51 GMT
Those gloves look like they might be an implementation based on this the Upbeat Fondlers suggestion of mine, just copied template from PoM gloves, left all useful fluff out, upped phys imms by 5% and forgot everything else - left completely bare and implemented in the game before the kicker that would be the Superior Two Weapon Fighting was implemented; the gloves are worse than the theoretized "nerfed lvl 60 alternative as drop in 60 areas" we discussed with Poli at length in the original thread, yet drop from lvl 65+ zone Hardmode endboss; and mostly seems to have ignored the discussion around the item's theoretical implementation at the time. Still serves the original idea purpose of swapper item in current game, yet it seems like perhaps I shouldn't have made that suggestion before the Superior feat was implemented. Now it's pretty much a You Lost! drop cluttering the lootpool. Edit: unless there is some secret power to it of course, like granting an extra attack without telling anyone. Edit2: ^which doesn't seem to be the case. Edit3: never saw the pre-nerfed version of the item as extra attacks that was re-implemented, so probably nothing to do with the upbeat fondlers. Quite happy about us seeing only the other ssendam drops back then.
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Fracas
Apr 21, 2020 12:06:33 GMT
Post by woqued on Apr 21, 2020 12:06:33 GMT
I'm just gonna throw this thread a bump. Those gloves are sad - and no, I didn't just loot them and now feel bad about it - they just came up in a conversation revolving around new items for Mechanus.
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Fracas
Apr 21, 2020 17:27:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 17:27:48 GMT
These need to be deleted from the loot table or fixed ASAP. These are worse than LL loot and serve no purpose.
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Fracas
Apr 22, 2020 1:37:31 GMT
Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 22, 2020 1:37:31 GMT
Please feel free to post a suggested set of edits or complete statistics.
Funky
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Fracas
Apr 22, 2020 5:49:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 5:49:33 GMT
So, in its original version, it gave an extra attack a round and did some things but they didn’t stack with anything else / were broken.
They then morphed into a duel wielders item but died there.
I think that plan needs to be scrapped entirely too and we create something new out of it. I think you almost take one of the Mechanus item thread items and drop it in and then readd Fracas back into Mechanus after we have properly vetted a pair of gloves.
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Fracas
Apr 22, 2020 12:13:57 GMT
Post by woqued on Apr 22, 2020 12:13:57 GMT
Keeping the item in while Superior Two-Weapon Fighting is still not in the game requires basically significant upgrades to the defensive properties on the item as well as adding some skills that might benefit it's potential users. I reckon this means: Dual wield bards/stormlords (feat tight, tbh don't expect stormlord to be able to utilize this but adding just in case), barbs (with dualweapon, also potentially feat tight); maybe even something like an Assassin. Thing is, that also means they HAVE to use this item, at all times in order to retain damage; no leeway for swapping - so it has to provide more than just the 3 pre-LL feats it does currently (considering; these classes could just use a 2handed weapon and use sturdier gloves). Also, PLEASE! Do NOT add/keep the property "Higher DEX than STR Required". Dualwielders have it rough enough without being forced into Dexers, leave that choice open - less subrace constraints and also leaves more options for Cha based dualwielders (likely higher dex still, but choice is nice). I would stat them as follows: Option A) - ambi/2wf/imp2wf - Up physical immunity from 10% to 15%- Add Physical DRs valued at 30/- - Add 25% negative immunity (or something else entirely, some misc immunities, minor amount of some other exotic (10%) or if you go wild valuable specific immunity property would do; we do not have flesh to stone / petrify gloves in the game but that seems a bit much) - Add in pickpocket +20 as a skill to the item, for battlebards, rogues, assassins or potential weird dualwielding warchanter if they have the defensive capacity to drop the shield but don't want to be mainly 2handed. Upgrade from PoM alternative choice would be: 10% 5% phys imms, 30 phys dr, 25% negative immunity, a little bit of skills. Seems fine for a lvl 50 -> 70 item upgrade. Net total: around the same as a well randomized wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Gauntlets_of_Transposed_Energy , with the weapon feats and 25% neg imm] - Why phys reduction? Common good vestige/asmo choices have exo dr on them instead of phys dr for the intended users aside the Breach Boots and Asmo Amulet. - I wanted to add STR/DEX checks over the negative immunities as fitting to the theme of extremely solid understanding of dexterity and mass with the gloves, but that seems kinda redundant when you think about how many of the intended users would be using asmo belt in the first place, causing unneeded overlap. - Other Limbo/Slaadlord fitting thematic properties other than Neg would be a nice bump to Acid immunity or if these are to be themed according to Ssendam instead of Ygorl (as per drop location) perhaps something Ssendam specific would do - some wild esoteric or confusion(would require nerfs elsewhere, and ranger gloves already have this) ?! .. Slaad lord of insanity eh. Maybe daze immunity would do here too, or spell specific immunities to some mind/hold type stuff. Or just flat +16 str and +16 dex as the mighty melee slaadi but again, severe overlap with asmo arti options causing it to be somewhat redundant, and if you have this you probably have access to XR items/pelor motes granting access to more sources of +16 as well. - Technically adding Epic Save Feat(s) on the item would further make it appealing to the classes very tight on feats and unable to splash pala (stormlord, perhaps barbs, rogues, non-bg assassins...). -- IF ! Phys DR were to be revoked from these - they could have vastly more interesting stats and allow leeway elsewhere for gearing (mostly helm/boots/belt/amulet/armor slot). That would allow us to stat it as follows: Option B) - ambi/2wf/imp2wf - Phys imms 12-14% 10% - DEX checks +4 - Pickpocket +20 - Neg imm 20% - Confusion immunity some other immunity - maybe stun? not much of that on gloves, nor on non-str arti for non-str based.. could fit - Epic Reflexes - Epic Will -- I would say higher value of the stats overall, very stacked - but means gearing is more difficult because it doesn't provide a "mandatory" key piece for a frontliner (Phys DR), nor any misc imms (poison/fear/kd/mind/death/... - no stats either) Would also make it more unique as a piece, but it could also kill it and cause frustration (How the F am i suppsoed to use those? Where do i get my reductions? ffs! - but also it could change the value of items around it if it is strong enough - I don't think it would be quite that strong, but certainly more interesting). Also no overlap with breach boots / phys dr robe from limbo etc. XR phys dr gloves here: wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Grind_and_Shatterwiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Tremble_in_the_BonesEdit4: tbh the XR phys dr gloves were much weaker than I remembered. As such, nerfing phys imms back to 10%. For reference, those XR phys immunities can randomize extremely well due to high base values(I have bracers with 20, 21, 13% phys imms personally - but on ele dr base; so 15 might not be too much, but nerfed anyway)
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Fracas
Apr 22, 2020 13:19:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 13:19:31 GMT
Rather than confusion you should go with implosion.
As pointed out, if you leave it as is and buff it, you’re making it a REQUIRED item which feels awful. You have all of these things and are stuck with this item in this slot. We had that with wraps and shifted away from it and I think we need to avoid going that direction.
I think Woqued’s option B sounds amazing but cover implosion versus confusion would still fit thematically, it not even more so, and offer some legitimate flex for a hard to find and fit immunity whereas confusion is already prevalent on so many slots.
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Fracas
Apr 22, 2020 13:27:18 GMT
Post by woqued on Apr 22, 2020 13:27:18 GMT
Ah, those classes can still just take the feats. You just make a tradeoff: do I want to make this choice? What do I get for those feats otherwise? It's offering something for quite niche builds or people who want to make a run-by-run case for "do i want to use a shield, or dualwield, or just reincarnate as a 2 hander and use better gloves."
Edit: or if they ^can't, then these gloves unlock potentially builds that would've never happened without them. And that's great! But then they also need to be good enough to permanently use, but not so OP that everyone wants to make those builds to overthrow the existing ones. Therein lies the powerlevel we need to hit, if they are to stay with the dualwielding feats. Note, nobody nor their old grandma ever during my time touched or even thought of the PoM gloves, that was too weak even pre-Limbo powercreep.
Confusion is perhaps a bit too common yes so Option B) getting it is iffy. I added it as it currently drops from Ssendam as the mind thematic property aside Epic Will; but it has to be a high value property if it would be implemented in that type of form.
--> It could also be Implosion or some high value spell immunity for Mechanus/Llymic/whatever EE area; ----> If implosion that fights against the asmo belt option (and unlocks it, but what would you use on the suggested classes instead if gloves and belt are locked out? A ring? The ammy? THE HELM?! Prob the ammy, not much left tbh) -- but I also find people extremely frustrated with having properties stay "useless" for an unforeseeable amount of time on items that drop in high value slots (Like pt2 hard end boss set drop) just because "it will be good at some point" (4+ years later, still in chest unused...)
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Fracas
Apr 23, 2020 13:26:47 GMT
Post by woqued on Apr 23, 2020 13:26:47 GMT
Alright, did some further thinking/discussing and here's an alternative with no weapon feats, but provides something no current gloves do.
Fracas new variant ! Gloves AC: Defl 18 Epic feat: Epic Reflexes Epic feat: Epic Will Damage Immunity: Slashing 12% Damage Immunity: Piercing 12% Damage Immunity: Bludgeoning 12% Enhancement bonus: STR +14 Enhancement bonus: DEX +14 Immunity: Stun Saving Throws: Universal +6 Saving Throws: Reflexes +10 Skill bonus: Pick pocket +15 Skill bonus: Craft Weapon +15
1. no stun imm items in limbo 2. no (competitive?) gloves in game that give stun immunity 3. speciality: saves. 4. too many conf imm gloves in game as opposed to other sources of conf already (tho one limited to rangers). ^ correct me if im wrong on these counts
Sidenote: as much as I love the concept enough to suggest it earlier, I think it might be better to as Raj said in another conversation: stop trying to fix dualwielding with items. I considered the notion of just adding a Pandect that grants dualwielding feats somewhere, maybe not even a paragon area but one of the newer LL areas. There is no reason to have such a high barrier to enter dualwielding when two-handed is in a relatively good spot in the game excluding XR weapon performance in pre-paragon areas. A caster feat book if you may, just for dualwielders.
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Fracas
Apr 23, 2020 13:43:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 13:43:45 GMT
Swap it to implosion and it’s worth it. STR artifact already covers stun way too nicely that tanks wouldn’t ever use this. Even bards use STR artifact until purple boots. Casters may use this, doubtful, as glove slot is often where physicals are thrown in.
Implosion thematically is a way better fit anyway with all of the blacks plus Ssendam, and the prevalence of implosion in P1.
You are correct that there are no viable stun alternatives in the glove slot but this isn’t it.
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Fracas
Apr 23, 2020 14:06:27 GMT
Post by woqued on Apr 23, 2020 14:06:27 GMT
Swap it to implosion and it’s worth it. STR artifact already covers stun way too nicely that tanks wouldn’t ever use this. Even bards use STR artifact until purple boots. Casters may use this, doubtful, as glove slot is often where physicals are thrown in. Implosion thematically is a way better fit anyway with all of the blacks plus Ssendam, and the prevalence of implosion in P1. You are correct that there are no viable stun alternatives in the glove slot but this isn’t it. What's wrong with it besides implosion immunity on it being conveniently amazing combined with the new vestige shield (that happens to have phys dr) for completely replacing asmo shield for easy limbo gearing? We already have the pt2 ring for implosion >.> Enabling Dex arti as an option seems good. Edit3: if stun immunity in gloves is good but this isn't it, how to change it ?
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Fracas
Apr 23, 2020 18:27:16 GMT
Post by drunkenboastor on Apr 23, 2020 18:27:16 GMT
I feel the pain of trying to figure out what to do with Fracas. Perhaps the path of what to do with the item is to first identify out what sort of character build or area the item is intended for. If Fracas is to be a Limbo runner item, psionic and anarchic immunity and/or resists or disintegration immunity should be considered. If Fracas is to improve dual wielders, give some special power if using a double weapon or a weapon in off hand. Without a more narrow set of parameters to work with, I have a tough time with making positive suggestions.
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Post by KnightErrant on Apr 23, 2020 21:35:30 GMT
Fracas
Bonus Feat: Ambidexterity Bonus Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting Bonus Feats: Improved Sneak Attack I, II, III & IV Damage Immunity; Bludgeoning 15% Damage Immunity; Piercing 15% Damage Immunity; Slashing 15% Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +16 Skill Bonus: Craft Armor +10 Skill Bonus: Craft Weapon +30 Skill bonus: Discipline +15
Special: Provides one extra offhand attack a round if a weapon is equipped in the offhand or using a double weapon. (Stacks with Divine Power) Special: Provides +10 Shield AC if no Monk or Ranger levels.
My stab at making it interesting...
,02 KE
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