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Post by madzapper on Feb 27, 2020 18:40:37 GMT
How is this a balancing issue? When you introduce randomness into a set situation you are in effect creating imbalance. You cannot say that it was random before the change because was not random, it was set. Because it was set, many players embraced it, and I would argue it enhances the communal experience through players sharing the information of which server gave which ability. Let me just start by saying I have no preference on this issue at all. The LL stats were meant to be random from the beginning. It was in the description of LL stats, and the impression by most anyone when they first came out was that they were random. People just found a bug in the system and gamed it to get what they wanted out of it. A healthy argument could be made that for each server reset, the stats for any character created on it were random. They were just the same random for every character created on that server. I'm sure that anyone going from server to server trying to get the starting stat they desired felt like maybe that wasn't the way the system was intended to be used. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed or that people want it more regular, I'm just saying that your argument that it was not random is in fact you saying that you were totally gaming the system in a way it wasn't originally intended.
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Post by woqued on Feb 27, 2020 19:10:44 GMT
Yes, we gamed the system using a most irritating method. That should be a good cue to see how it is from those who really are methodical about their builds.
What's the upside of keeping it random? To let a player know at 63 that their cake is at 79 instead of 73?
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Post by drunkenboastor on Feb 27, 2020 19:31:07 GMT
With this change, ability order has changed on current characters. Example: My bard is ready to take 74. His first paragon ability point was charisma, when taking 74 he should get strength. I am being offered intelligence. My Pale Master is ready to take 79. Her first paragon ability point was constitution, when taking 79 I should get strength. I am being offered Dexterity.
Characters that existed before the recent change, who have already gotten paragon ability points, now have a different order of getting ability points. This in effect breaks the established order of getting ability points. Why do current characters have to be broken to make this fix?
A note about the change itself. I will, along with other players, continue to reincarnate over and over and over again until I get the ability point start that I want in all cases. This change is a huge quality of life decrease for myself and any other player who does this because it now will take longer to get the desired result.
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Post by madzapper on Feb 27, 2020 20:51:07 GMT
Yes, we gamed the system using a most irritating method. That should be a good cue to see how it is from those who really are methodical about their builds. All this is saying to me is that the reward is good enough to keep trying. Not that it should be this way or not. You might also try Pyramid 100 (sarcasm) times to get a wisdom artifact or Elysium to get Cleric armor or Aboleths to get Druid flag. Your build won't be complete until you get what you're after, but when you get it will be somewhat random (and in some cases it might never happen for that character). The difference in those cases is that you'd be playing within the design of the system in the way it was intended to be played. Obviously the leveling system was bugged and not working the way it was originally intended. Just because people want something and are willing to abuse the system to get what they want doesn't mean that that's how the system is supposed to or should work. What I REALLY love is people abusing a situation forcing a rewrite only to further the abuse the system forcing yet more rewrites. As long as it's determined to be buggy, more rewrites will ensue. From my perspective this is the dialog to have and SHOULD have occurred before people abused the system. What good is an honor system where there is no honor? I don't have any feeling one way or the other on whether they should be random or not. Cheers!
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Post by madzapper on Feb 27, 2020 20:58:30 GMT
With this change, ability order has changed on current characters. Example: My bard is ready to take 74. His first paragon ability point was charisma, when taking 74 he should get strength. I am being offered intelligence. My Pale Master is ready to take 79. Her first paragon ability point was constitution, when taking 79 I should get strength. I am being offered Dexterity. Characters that existed before the recent change, who have already gotten paragon ability points, now have a different order of getting ability points. This in effect breaks the established order of getting ability points. Why do current characters have to be broken to make this fix? Well, you might be indicating a bug. However, there is nothing that I found that says you get certain stats (or any) at certain levels. You're only going off of what has seemed to be really regular. Okay. Rather than make threats, why not come up with solid reasons why it should be predictable that are beyond "I want it that way because it's nice." ... maybe talk about how not having it severely impacts your play. For example: I cannot get crit immune 40 strength on this build because from 0-62, even with demi stats and my best gear, I cannot find the spots in the build to get my strength up that high, but on level 62 it opens wide up.
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Post by woqued on Feb 27, 2020 21:39:29 GMT
With this change, ability order has changed on current characters. Example: My bard is ready to take 74. His first paragon ability point was charisma, when taking 74 he should get strength. I am being offered intelligence. My Pale Master is ready to take 79. Her first paragon ability point was constitution, when taking 79 I should get strength. I am being offered Dexterity. Characters that existed before the recent change, who have already gotten paragon ability points, now have a different order of getting ability points. This in effect breaks the established order of getting ability points. Why do current characters have to be broken to make this fix? Well, you might be indicating a bug. However, there is nothing that I found that says you get certain stats (or any) at certain levels. You're only going off of what has seemed to be really regular. Okay. Rather than make threats, why not come up with solid reasons why it should be predictable that are beyond "I want it that way because it's nice." ... maybe talk about how not having it severely impacts your play. For example: I cannot get crit immune 40 strength on this build because from 0-62, even with demi stats and my best gear, I cannot find the spots in the build to get my strength up that high, but on level 62 it opens wide up. But these were things I among others mentioned in an earlier post :/ Can't believe that would be the first time it has been mentioned either, I know we have discussed it ingame with DMs present. Also, how was what drunkenboastor said a threat? It was a statement. It has been mentioned before that there are builds that require a specific amount of stat X to get a bonus Y. Getting it at 62 means you will have 2 stats you do not need at 80. So you risk a tradeoff; do you take two stats you do not need on your build or risk not getting what you need for the entirety of the characters career. Ok, if we must we will accept it but it is hard to argue why it must be this way other than "it simply is, suck it up." when there are better alternatives. I mean, I'm open to hearing why the RNG in this part of the game is a plus, I just haven't heard it and can't come up with it on my own.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2020 22:00:59 GMT
How is this a balancing issue? When you introduce randomness into a set situation you are in effect creating imbalance. You cannot say that it was random before the change because was not random, it was set. Because it was set, many players embraced it, and I would argue it enhances the communal experience through players sharing the information of which server gave which ability. None of that follows. It's not QoL because it has obvious impacts on how builds are implmented, and how they can maximize power. QoL issues are about convenience without meaningfully altering player power or mean time to reward. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2020 22:04:12 GMT
I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed or that people want it more regular, I'm just saying that your argument that it was not random is in fact you saying that you were totally gaming the system in a way it wasn't originally intended. Also, this. Whether or not it was or was not random has nothing to do with whether it affects player power. But claiming it was set because you figured out the randomizing mechanic is a little contrived. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2020 22:06:56 GMT
With this change, ability order has changed on current characters. Example: My bard is ready to take 74. His first paragon ability point was charisma, when taking 74 he should get strength. I am being offered intelligence. My Pale Master is ready to take 79. Her first paragon ability point was constitution, when taking 79 I should get strength. I am being offered Dexterity. Characters that existed before the recent change, who have already gotten paragon ability points, now have a different order of getting ability points. This in effect breaks the established order of getting ability points. Why do current characters have to be broken to make this fix? They don't. The code was inadvertently reverted to the old system, and is now fixed. You'll have to reinc to fix it. The root cause of the inadvertent reversion was my inability to use our dev environment on my Windows 10 computer, which was remedied last night with assistance from Madzapper. No, you won't. We're locking it in for each reincarnation to prevent gaming the system. No QoL issue. Funky
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Post by chainlink on Feb 27, 2020 22:15:21 GMT
Does mean that any -HC- characters that took PLs between 62 and 79 whilst the code was reverted are potentially now forever going to end up with an odd number of stat points?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2020 22:25:09 GMT
Honestly not sure, though I think it's possible. If so, we can use DM editing to fix it. Sorry for the inconvenience.
At root, the problem was that our dev environment was not compatible with Windows 10, so I couldn't sync to the servers to schlep up all the updated code when I updated with Arcane Archive. Madzapper helped me fix that last night, so we are back to using repo as of this evening, and things like this will be far less likely to happen again.
Funky
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Post by chainlink on Feb 28, 2020 7:59:55 GMT
OK will keep an eye out for any characters we have that end up with odd stats at 80. One further question about this change (not -HC- related), if the first stat point is set on character logging in can you not just keep using a reincarnation slot level up to 63 then delete and redo until you get the first stat you want (1 in 6 chance)?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 10:45:02 GMT
No. It’s now locked. Whatever is assigned for the duration of that reinc period is now locked in if you reuse the same character name, and possibly even if you don’t.
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Post by chainlink on Feb 28, 2020 11:26:20 GMT
Ah so it is locked to the reinc slot at the point you create it not the new character you use it on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 12:31:12 GMT
FunkySwerveI understand the intention was for this to be random. It always has been random and the player base figured out the system and worked the system to achieve their desired results. I also understand how you feel about player power creep and player power and wanting to control for that. My ask is, give the player population this feature back. This is such a core facet to our designs, how we do what we do, the excitement we have with getting a specific book, or a new piece of gear which unlocks different things for us, etc. It goes contrary to how you feel about player power which you have already expressed in this post. I get it. You want to minimize it. I just ask that it not be this. Please reverse this change. Your point on quality of life makes sense. This goes beyond QoL. But, it is still just so critical to what a large portion of your player base does and how they do it. It would be a HUGE bonus to the players, I mean huge. If you want to take it further, let us pick. Even a reversal would be a significant win though and one we would all appreciate very much.
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