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Post by witchkiller on Aug 23, 2019 22:18:18 GMT
I played HG a looong time ago to like level 20 but I was left immensely unsatisfied by solo caster type game play. I strongly dislike fleeing/hiding/lot of running/relying on summons/generally being glass cannon gameplay and I NEED to be able to charge into battle get into the thick of things and still prevail, to me there's no better feeling. That said I'm not much for playing a zDPS damage sponge either, I like to min max and get the best of everything where I can.
Buuuuuuuut I've never played NWN or actual pnp DND for any appreciable amount of time so I have no foundational knowledge of the rules or systems to draw on to build proper characters with. I've done some extensive reading through the forums, wiki, and watching videos because I wanted to learn more about non-caster options. The over arching recommendation seems to be: DONT DO IT! (unless you have a bunch of twink gear and know what you're doing). The build guides that do exist for tanks mostly operate under the assumption that the character must work independent of partying. Many of them are very old and likely outdated as well.
With how many variables go into making a character and how effective they can get with the proper considerations I wanted to appeal to some of the knowledgeable folk on the forums about how I should go about making a tank from nothing and what kinds of builds would be best suited for this especially with dual boxing in mind. I don't mind playing both characters very actively, and I have a lot of previous boxing experience in EQ/WoW/Ultima Online so this isn't really an obstacle for me. That said if it's better that the 2nd character be a simple buffbot then that's alright as well. I want to do whatever will most effectively enhance my tanks gameplay.
Thoughts? Ideas? Build recommendations? Have a compelling urge to try to talk me out of actually following through with this terrible idea? Whatever it is leave some comments! Anyone that wouldn't mind having their brain picked a bit feel free to drop a way for me to chat with you alternatively I'm on Discord at WitchKiller#5709.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 23:23:45 GMT
Botting is an addiction on top of the HG addiction. Be very, very careful! That said, imo, playing with others brings greater satisfaction. However, the server population is so slim at this time that finding others to party with becomes much more difficult. Hence, botting and the flexibility that comes with it. Any combo of core class plus a tank is a common method of leveling. I think there are quite a few tanks that are viable without having amazing gear. Anyways, you gotta start somewhere. I might get chastised for this but rangers are pretty sturdy and decently fun to play at least for a first tank getting you closer to hells/abyss if that is your goal. But others have their favorite tanks. It is true that min/maxed tanks get better with age and gear, but you can still have fun on an open subby and learn the game as you go. At the end of this post are links to core classes on open subs: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/21271/troubadour-bard-39-paladin-1If I had one legit word of advice, it would be to just focus on your two favorite toons working your way into hells/abyss. That way you will maximize your time investment and loot accumulation. Ray
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Post by magecat on Aug 24, 2019 1:03:34 GMT
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Post by witchkiller on Aug 24, 2019 1:37:54 GMT
Thanks for the posts, hadn't seen those threads by Xiayu before lots of nice information in there!
How are rangers post-immo? I've watched johanns speed run to Immo and I intend to use as much of the knowledge in there as I can to start off on the right foot here. Ranger didn't seem to have much forum presence from what I had read so surprising to see both of you recommended it. I'm aware early animal empathy for Oltum is really solid. While my gut choice for that 2nd character was going to be Cleric due to GWM/gird/miracle being a pretty amazing toolkit to support a 2man I really like the idea of maybe trying Xianyu's moogle knight with Raj's idea to splash 2 sorc instead of 2 bard opening up a possible reinc to bfm/dsm down the line if I really end up having my fill of hack'n'slash.
That would open up consideration about my 2nd character. I could go Druid which gives me Oltum early on again. Druid's seem to have a reputation for being pretty much the most desirable core at every level of the game as well. It just doesn't have much direct support for a RDD tank as far as I can tell despite its bigger picture impact. But if I ever reinc the tank to a caster it will make a pretty amazing Caster+druid combo that could elevate any party.
Worth thinking about or better to go with something like Ranger + Cleric (or maybe Bard?). I'm not sure how well Cleric pairs with Ranger since Rangers get Bloodthirst which reduces Clerics GWM impactfulness.
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Post by chainlink on Aug 24, 2019 8:25:18 GMT
Rangers can be extremely good post immo the question is do you want to make a Str based one (gets crit imm from spell and can tank reasonably well) or Wis based with a stupidly high DC called shot from ranger bows but not a tank, Dex based isn't really a winner as it doesn't get the benefits of either of the others.
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Post by woqued on Aug 24, 2019 11:59:06 GMT
A good way to start thinking about your preferred Duo of choice is having one casting offensive character; so an Arcane, Cleric [C] or Druid [D] - they're much more fun to play when you don't need to run away all the time thanks to your trusted 2nd character. Then add in something that is sturdy to the front. Consider GMW is not mandatory thanks to certain buffing items in the game but those only get you so far; some form of weapon buffs for elemental types is extremely recommended; and considering how XP is gained post-Immo some form of AoE clear is highly, highly recommended to spare your sanity and time. Weapon buffs are basically mandatory if your frontliner is meant to do the killing and not just beefing up and letting others work. In no particular order: Fighter, Ranger, CoT, Paladin, Blackguard, Shifterlash, Battlecleric, Monk, Rogue, Lash, Bard, Barbarian and maybe Warchanter (bardCC for easier later reincarnation) are all recommendable front-liners. Soloclearing 41+ content on a Tank is very slow business without buffs even with top-end weapons, and sololeveling a duo of melee/archer from 41 to 80 without weapon buffs would probably take years of active play, not that 80 is a goal you should necessarily take for yourself.
You can also have a castertank like Battlecleric/Warchanter and another tank of some sort if you really hate casting. In that case I'd recommend a Paladin + BC for sonic/fire/cold/divine/holy sword and other buffs such as FoM/Btide/Prayer/Life'sGrace/ClericEpics while having a tankier front-liner (cleric) and potential for 2h damage dealer from side (Paladin), or BC + Ranger. If you like Shifters then BC+Shifter would serve you very well.
I would suggest avoiding 2handed weapons on your first play through unless making a Monk/Ranger unless you really enjoy the 1 frontline tank + 1 glass cannon type deal. I would also suggest avoiding any dualwielders due to a number of reasons such as acquiring a sufficient number and good coverage of weapons, buffing issues, feat starvation and simple inferiority to 2handed weapons in the current patch. 1h + shield is a good way to keep your frontline alive and help with learning the game until later, unless going Ranger/Monk/Monksplash. Barb is a good middle ground to this - sturdy, good damage with shapestrong. Will find weaponswapping annoying later on in the game, but it's still a very nice front-liner, especially if you don't intend to make just 2 characters and reincarnate them over and over - Barb is a good and most of all cheap choice for a first tank, Gnoll -> Stinger is a cheap and strong subrace progression for this, so are many BUR ones like Juggernaut. Barbs are a little underrated due to their lack of defenses if going for maximized offensive potential with 40% 2h damage and cumbersome weaponswapping later on, but until 60+ content these are nonissues and Barbs get to enjoy having 20% damage while wearing a shield via shapestrong.
Any A/C/D + Bard - for the best endgame duo potential, high save drops, aoe clear, instakilling potential, damage potential, strong frontline defense from a Bard [but only if going for the tankbard instead of a max dc one] - lacking in Tank damage, but best party starting capability 41+ over everything else too. Arcane + Bard allows you to solo almost everything (except Aboleths/Limbo/Tia) the game has to offer, but this combination doesn't really give your "i want to go in there and smack things" type of satisfaction.
Druid + BattleCleric; [Extreme amount of buffs/epics/versatility of spells/savedrop/srdrop, covers 4 elemental damage types on weapon buffs, decent frontline damage for a 1h/shield character, good potential for Reincarnation later]
Cleric + Barbarian; - with these two you can provide a good backbone to any party to keep it from wiping under any circumstance if played/geared right, and provides potential to reincarnate to battlecleric / botcleric / turner / pariah later if so inclined but not very specialized classes for Limbo and doesn't offer maximal tank damage later on and has no form of Picking/Searching in the form of pixie or a rogue, mostly relevant if soloing lvl 40 too.
Ranger + [C/D/A] - potential to solo everything up till Tia, and gives you a duo that isn't gear reliant and is very very high power in endgame thanks to Ranger + Core.
C/D + Rogue - gives you a good frontline, rogue as picker/searcher. Personally my first duo was Cleric + Rogue and it worked out well, but probably not ideal. Having a searcher/picker in 41-60 content to get secrets is a good way to net some goodies even and especially when soloing.
A/C/D + Tankshifter - shifterlash is OP frontline in endgame, A/C/D get you there.
But honestly, anything works if the characters aren't bad. Two characters get you far almost no matter what you do - and 1-40 is soloable with every class in the game even on one character, adding in a second one to help out gets you somewhere 41+ too. Oltum is quite irrelevant, it's a lazy cheesespeed-upper and only matters really on levels 5-20ish if you have two characters unless your plan is to specifically speedrun. I find it even detrimental personally in that it trivializes early game content in a stupid way.
The stuff mentioned above are only recommendations for what have been preferred meta classes in the game so far, but what works in general for your first trip through would include pretty much all classes and quasiclasses in the game. Key takeaways: Utility is extremely great, Extra attacks are very welcome for damage, buffs are integral, durable meatwall helps learning the game, lategame leveling and farming is slow without casters/castershifter if going alone and Save dropping matters a lot more when you aren't outleveling your content. If it's your first time, you'll probably enjoy any working combination.
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Post by witchkiller on Aug 24, 2019 14:51:06 GMT
I think I've landed on Ranger+Cleric as my preferred duo. That said I took a look through the ranger forum and the open subraces forum, I'm not seeing any ranger build posts that follow the meta you're mentioning woqued (1h+shield , str based). They're all non-tanks, dex based, or dual wielders. Closest to it would be sabregirls lasher which I think I may try for the 1-40 experience, reincing to something more rangery at 40 right before immoing. Could use some pointers here about how to build the ranger. Cleric I'm intending to follow along with xprepared's highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25651/cleric-rogue-caster-picker-duties since hes made some very solid points about its various benefits that I think your post only reinforces for me.
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Post by magecat on Aug 24, 2019 16:22:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 19:08:32 GMT
This link is a build that uses a 2-hand weapon. However, this build has endgame in mind. You can use it as a guild to fit it into an open race as rangers have more flex on feats. Use a sword and board until reinc post 2 demi cycles. You can swap out favored enemy to fit the areas you will running around in. All of Poli's builds are very good though they have end game in mind and the gear may be harder to acquire in the early stages of playtime. You can use less popular weapons and still do fine. Just shout in !bazaar and I am sure the hoarders in game can pull out some dusty Dustbone weapons. IIRC, Prep's cleric bot was built as a drag toon. So it may not be an ideal cleric to level from scratch. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25348/limbo-ranger-40PS: Woki is one wise dude. take note.
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Post by chirality on Aug 24, 2019 19:16:22 GMT
i think cleric + ranger is a solid pick if you don't care for the tricksy ways of an arcane (otherwise my first recommendation would naturally be sorc as one of the 2).
aside from the sense of building one as a ranger in and of itself, ranger also lends itself well to reincarnation: you can easily choose to go forward as a shifter or lash. for that matter, i think ranger is the most flexible and minmax-friendly reinc-slot class atm, with all options being regarded as very solid in the meta atm (and unlikely to change anytime soon if ever).
cleric played as a support/tank battlecleric would seem to suit your playstyle well and is extremely powerful and imo (other than arcane) the best choice for a spot in a 2-player/bot party. imo best bang for the buck/power:weight ratio, can take a rogue level if desired, and gives you the option to reinc into a real ploder eventually if you end up wanting to (although honestly it wouldn't even make sense; "botc" power/value doesn't really ever diminish, all the way to endgame/80, and actually somewhere around endgame starts really becoming impressive in a tiny/duo group).
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Post by simpetar on Aug 24, 2019 21:43:58 GMT
This link is a build that uses a 2-hand weapon. However, this build has endgame in mind. You can use it as a guild to fit it into an open race as rangers have more flex on feats. Use a sword and board until reinc post 2 demi cycles. Rangers get at the very least 16 wisdom AC basically for free, but it can go up to 20 (or higher for zen). This bonus makes shield pretty much obsolete. This is why rangers can use their 2h weapons from the start (even open sub) and get away with it, unlike some other tanks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 22:00:38 GMT
Simp is wise too. Sorry, memory issues. Musta been the COT that was sword & board for two cycles... Rangers OP!
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Post by Torin on Aug 25, 2019 7:04:29 GMT
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Post by woqued on Aug 25, 2019 11:12:10 GMT
I would suggest avoiding 2handed weapons on your first play through unless making a Monk/Ranger 2h is fine. Ranger + Cleric is a good call, any of the dualwielding builds for ranger also works with 2h if you make a small-sized character and use a medium weapon (to retain wis ac, and switcheroo your points to STR; the Cleric helps your ranger stay up, scrolls until 10+ and later with dodge ac buffs & stuff), or use a spear as medium character with intuitive attack. Do note that it is hard to pull off a 2handed small ranger with open subraces, you are lacking in Strength. Zen spear medium ones works fine though, and gives you versatility for ranged combat as well, and a very impressive amount of AC. Can later reincarnate into something else. Also, dualwielding isn't that bad around 1-40, it is only later that acquiring and crafting weapons and buffing them becomes such a major pain in the bum. So if you intend to reincarnate the character soon anyway, there is no issue. What is your subrace situation as it stands? Access to Secret / UR / Bur races? Edit: Recommended builds: Newbie Cleric and any of the Ranger builds that has CS - you are playing with a cleric, make use of the BT / Prayer, the cleric helps more than a BUR subrace would. Later on reincarnate either into a Shifterlash or the Poliwhirl Ranger.
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Post by witchkiller on Aug 27, 2019 18:17:17 GMT
2h is fine. Ranger + Cleric is a good call, any of the dualwielding builds for ranger also works with 2h if you make a small-sized character and use a medium weapon (to retain wis ac, and switcheroo your points to STR; the Cleric helps your ranger stay up, scrolls until 10+ and later with dodge ac buffs & stuff), or use a spear as medium character with intuitive attack. Do note that it is hard to pull off a 2handed small ranger with open subraces, you are lacking in Strength. Zen spear medium ones works fine though, and gives you versatility for ranged combat as well, and a very impressive amount of AC. Can later reincarnate into something else. Also, dualwielding isn't that bad around 1-40, it is only later that acquiring and crafting weapons and buffing them becomes such a major pain in the bum. So if you intend to reincarnate the character soon anyway, there is no issue. What is your subrace situation as it stands? Access to Secret / UR / Bur races? Edit: Recommended builds: Newbie Cleric and any of the Ranger builds that has CS - you are playing with a cleric, make use of the BT / Prayer, the cleric helps more than a BUR subrace would. Later on reincarnate either into a Shifterlash or the Poliwhirl Ranger.
This is a completely fresh start so only open subraces. I already started lvling with the whipping gnoll and xprep's cleric. Will consider restarting if starting out 2h is considerably better than reincing the gnoll whipper at 40 pre-immo, I'm not that far yet- only done up to lv16 tags. Been spending lots of time trying to understand stats and mechanics rather than rushing it too hard right now.
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