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Post by horbag on Mar 6, 2020 9:14:00 GMT
RE: Sorc / Wiz RE: Cleric Light Armor I love this piece too. Add some parry and it's fantastic. A piece like this really gets me excited because on our limbo runs my cleric really became a "Support". Spamming UEFs, prayers, GRs, mass heals, and various buffs to keep the tanks going. It's the first time I ever experienced being a true healer in HG and it was incredible. I think a piece like this could support that and I am all about it. Just add parry. i felt the same on a pelor fight, i didn't have to go to limbo for it!
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2020 15:49:53 GMT
RE: Sorc / Wiz Make it +2 Spell Penetration and I love it. I also would rather drop the 10% to each element and bump the magic up a bit higher. I like the idea here. Hands down. BUR giving +1 spell pen, XR / Paragon starting at +2 is fair, the bonus here plus the augmenters we have talked about in another thread really start to get you some of the oomph that has been lacking. RE: Cleric Light Armor I love this piece too. Add some parry and it's fantastic. A piece like this really gets me excited because on our limbo runs my cleric really became a "Support". Spamming UEFs, prayers, GRs, mass heals, and various buffs to keep the tanks going. It's the first time I ever experienced being a true healer in HG and it was incredible. I think a piece like this could support that and I am all about it. Just add parry. RE: Barbarian Armor Make the physical imms 5% higher, and the resistances 5/- higher, and add craft weapon. I think this piece would then compete with the XR as mentioned by Funky above. Where it's a true alternative, not a downgrade with a nice special. If it's an alternative with a nice special on top, it will always outrank an XR unless you get a one in ten thousand random with bur aug. If it's a downgrade, but made up for by the special; then it's competition. But the special and the lower stats need to be in line, and I felt often that the specials especially in older gear are not good enough to make up for the lack of oomph elsewhere which was very clearly displayed by the amount of sets used after an extended period of BUR item farming. I try to avoid that, thus often the first draft of an item is too strong. I think your perception of items is different from mine though, as you farmed XRs a lot more. Key problem is class features implemented into items in olden days; those items have been musty and dusty long ago, but playing without them is a pain so you feel bad about using them but since you're used to that effect you just feel bad (Lifethreaders prime offender here with the Ely armor). That effect should have been class feature. I try to avoid that, but I also don't want to create "Must have, once you have this you will never use anything else ever again" -type items. It has to feel good to use, and also provide something unique at the same time, not just "i must use this for the unique and feel bad about doing it". These items will not be outranked though, this is the last tier of items so these don't have that issue so we don't need to unnecessarily pad them too much (I think) - but they do indeed need to have a LOT of stats to compete with XRs. XR gear is by and large REALLY fuckin strong with randomization - I feel there are many OP pieces in those and that makes set development harder. I know you know this but I needed to type it out anyway. Thanks for the notes on the items, it helps even if we disagree (not that we necessarily do)! We need more of this.
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2020 15:54:50 GMT
+2 SP on paragon would be in line, but the approval has to come from devs. Perhaps a conversation they should have at this point. I kinda feel like +1 sp and 1-2 other specials that widen the oppourtunities feels better than flat power +2 SP. Odds are, +2 sp would be better, but opening that means another headache for anyone not using them and the devs in critter development; do they need to calculate every mob as if the caster has +2 sp item + ego + +2 sp aug or not? What if they don't have those, do they just not land anything ever?
It's a can of worms I don't want to be in charge of opening.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 16:04:59 GMT
I think I am going to look at putting together the more traditional heavy armor piece for clerics capturing more of the support ideas I loved that your original piece inspired me. I think we are on the same wave-length and how that is realized is just personal preference, and maybe more experience with XR's on my end a bit. For casters the XR's really didn't bring much of anything (All of mine for the most part are still in Tia / Abyss for slots, upgrading your Gauntlets of Transposed to an XR variant and so I think the set's we design here are going to be "the" pieces for awhile, the new Tia if you will, and then the following area-set can add a few more like the Abyss pieces did and I don't necessarily feel like that is a negative. The caster pieces need a bump. With how much loot is needed and the emphasize on bringing the quasi's and struggling classes into a line I think your iteration of a light more able to be used by the outer tier Cleric based classes and a traditional plate that I will submit can both fit and depending lead one to the other or be the trade chip needed to swap for the alternative.
As has been made clear, SP is a huge problem and across the board tiering up to +2 SP, and then with the augments we have discussed and other potential spell and / or alignment specific bumps we are mentioning will help us catch up.
I know we aren't really supposed to talk about World of Warcraft, but in end-game content there you often have several different gear set-ups predicated on the type of fight you're doing, at least as a tank which I often play. I think HG going in a similar direction where you have a core group of things, and then you swap torches, augs, etc. for specific bonuses based off where you're at is a fantastic thing.
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2020 16:23:32 GMT
Spell Pen is mostly an issue in Limbo and some very specific critters; Limbo was supposed to be the Anti-Caster run of Paragon areas (or something among those lines). With the nerf to Paragon mob SP, things are already looking up. I would hold off on going too crazy on the SP department for the time being.
Several gear sets doesn't play too well with the inventory management of NWN and swapping slot gear around, so it can't be too prevalent or tied to the slots where you get your spellslots from (reslotting things sucks and is boring and feels like an annoying part of a job, not a fun game after you've done it a couple thousand times).
That being said, I look forward to the Heavy variant!
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2020 16:36:53 GMT
What do you think about adding set items that grant a specific School of spells an increased SP bonus as a special (on top of whatever else they have)? I know it sounds mental after criticizing the dangers of increasing caster SP caps too much, but adding that as a potential special for a potential WIZARD / Pale Master / BFM/DSM special item seems interesting - those would allow for higher SPs on an item than universals while being easy to implement and catering to key weak quasi audience that already lack special sets of their own.
Other than that -
Next item on the line for me is a Dwarven Warchanter armor/gloves/cloak/boots of some kind, but I can't for the life of me think of anything else other than increasing the Warcry critical immunity duration. That one was such a key piece of that class for me that made it unfun to play after a time. Other than that could have a special increasing Warchanter Displacement duration to last longer as well. They have such terrible issues managing spell slots and fitting spell slots into gear (or well, I did. Raj said I was just a noob though, but his WC was godtier geared and unfair comparison)... Any Warchanter lovers out there with ideas?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 17:18:45 GMT
I guess Vacuum survival may be added to some existing items (or possibly some new ones introduced) or there won't be many people venturing there unless they have the Gith Precursor xR subrace, will the existing Planewalker race have it added? It will probably only be on future items, like a ring. It will be needed for Atropus. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 17:22:39 GMT
A piece like this really gets me excited because on our limbo runs my cleric really became a "Support". Spamming UEFs, prayers, GRs, mass heals, and various buffs to keep the tanks going. It's the first time I ever experienced being a true healer in HG and it was incredible. I think a piece like this could support that and I am all about it. Just add parry. Ideally this is an experience I woudld like to preserve in future areas. Atropros should not be a problem (and I'm not saying why, but fear not, it's Evil), but other areas may be. What about the run is making this a necessary role. Obviously lots of damage, but... ? May want to stick in another thread depending on how complicated the answer is. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 17:25:27 GMT
i felt the same on a pelor fight, i didn't have to go to limbo for it! Same question for you: what about this fight forced this tactic? Thanks, Funky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 17:34:21 GMT
Well, my ideas around SP, barring some massive jump with content in general versus a slow progression, +2 would be the paragon tier, as +1 (Fist Wrap) is the BUR tier, maybe later you'd get +3 with the final runs. But, ultimately we are talking a jump of one, and then as we have talked about the augments, would have situational uses going over the top a little, so you're basically gaining the +1 SP plus whatever other fun stuff you get which isn't crazy. I think +3 until we reach true end-game is TOO much unless it's tied to either an alignment, or a specific spell, or something like that which make's it catered to specific areas or a specific but recurring set of encounters.
I think for me personally, having slots tied to the existing spots (Armor, Belt, Boots, Cloak, Necks, offhand) be the core of where I'd be placing slots for new pieces. Items like helmets, gloves, rings, and in a lot of cases cloaks / boots (Usually just one or the other) are used to get everything else covered. I like the idea of Tia / Abyss being your entry caster gear. Mechanus + next area set offering your Paragon tier, and then having an ultimate final set. Thoughts on this?
Your Sorc / WIZ armor design as mentioned above I loved, I just am firmly in the it's a paragon piece, +2 is acceptable camp. I also just like having more of one thing, versus a lot of a little, (RE: Elements versus one bigger exotic). For me, swapping gear around isn't any of the set pieces, you are 100% right that that feels bad. But, I don't see problems with creating off-pieces (Non-slot giving pieces) having flex between area sets with nice specials or whatever. That is more what I meant.
RE: Specific spell schools getting bumps I like, I think that that is a fantastic way to go about spicing some things up. It accomplishes that goal perfectly. I think some of these things should be done to the class itself, and then have gear that also does it to truly give them upgrades, versus fixing them through gear. Combine the two ideas. Big fan.
I think a piece, or pieces doing both of those things would help a lot. But, that goes back to the most recent point, is this that something that needs to happen at the class level and then we help build tank pieces with slots to alleviate the other half of the issue?
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Post by woqued on Mar 6, 2020 17:47:12 GMT
i felt the same on a pelor fight, i didn't have to go to limbo for it! Same question for you: what about this fight forced this tactic? Thanks, Funky Nothing forced us into this tactic, it is simply very effective. Very high inflictions / damage that we can't resist (read: Esoteric and Exotic) and high enemy monster defenses and constant kickback. This means we want our tanks to be able to hit ALL the time with no interruptions to restore or heal to kill the enemy before you get overrun by summons or other stuff; enemy saves/sr/everything is so high that Casters having constant source of restore makes them actually land something at times. Also, Cleric offensive spells and slot amounts simply aren't good enough compared to their Epics, other supportive qualities and when comparing them to the other casters. Druids and Arcanes have more important jobs in terms of offense, Clerics have better support and defense, and they overlap a lot. Heartbane? If you can HB it, you can crit it with a weapon, and critting it in one hit is more likely than penetrating both SR and two saves. Poison? Too slot intensive, competes with Prayer and buffs and all that, druids can do it and most important targets take IoM and let's be real your poison isn't going to land, too low level spell and key targets are immune (thanks, shifter nerf). Banish? Arcanes do it better (more slots, autochanneling, etc). Destruct? CoD / Wail / Basilisk / FoD by an Arcane is better. Rebuke? Competes with supportive spells, you lack slots; and again, Arcanes do it better. What we are left with is Implosion - but you can deal with Implosion targets by other means. So, TLDR: Combination of many things. Edit: Caster clerics with offense in mind aren't "bad" at all, they just aren't necessary and can be cumbersome to reslot all the time and so on, and a more stationary support cleric simplifies things. Tank/Support cleric just makes things really comfy due to others having to worry about things less. A God tier butler if you may. Drops saves, picks people up, rezzes in your garden without you having to worry about it and so on. It is VERY easy to pull off while multiboxing as well, which is a key point as to why it was popularized.
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Post by horbag on Mar 6, 2020 18:09:13 GMT
i felt the same on a pelor fight, i didn't have to go to limbo for it! Same question for you: what about this fight forced this tactic? Thanks, Funky in the pelor fight? easy, too meny things hitting on the boss ofc (talking about pelor as prince win here) we can't have him die so cleric goes on healing duty it was actually nice for a change
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 6, 2020 18:47:37 GMT
I remember the last times I did that pelor prince with my slinger. I found it fun and you feel more iportant in that role suddenly, beeing responsible for an important task. FitĀ“s its role perfectly as a support character/healer. Most dont realize how much such a character can ease a fight to be kept controlled and smooth (not necessarily easy!). Something I do as a backuplan on my Bards too with aoe heals to keep tanks/henchmen alive.
I have not yet had the oportunity to run my slinger in Limbo, so I cannot give any feedback on the perfomance/usefulness there.
Certainly a matter of taste playstyle wise, but I myself like it.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 18:58:04 GMT
RE: Sorc / Wiz Make it +2 Spell Penetration and I love it. I also would rather drop the 10% to each element and bump the magic up a bit higher. I like the idea here. Hands down. BUR giving +1 spell pen, XR / Paragon starting at +2 is fair, the bonus here plus the augmenters we have talked about in another thread really start to get you some of the oomph that has been lacking. *snip* If it's an alternative with a nice special on top, it will always outrank an XR unless you get a one in ten thousand random with bur aug. If it's a downgrade, but made up for by the special; then it's competition. But the special and the lower stats need to be in line, and I felt often that the specials especially in older gear are not good enough to make up for the lack of oomph elsewhere which was very clearly displayed by the amount of sets used after an extended period of BUR item farming. I try to avoid that, thus often the first draft of an item is too strong. I think your perception of items is different from mine though, as you farmed XRs a lot more. Your first two sentences perfectly capture the thinking and items I'm going for. I suspect you are right about the difference in your perspective with prep's, and I also suspect that while he has a better idea of what the bleeding edge best is, he is also likely to suggest items that are a bit much at present. Players in general - and please forgive the generalization - tend to want MOAR now. I think there's a lot of reasons for that beyond simply powering up. It's easy to gear, for example, when you know the item is just better across the board. No tough choices to make, no need to weigh whether a point of AC is better than one or more points of something else. And really, those kinds of valuations are relative to the area in a lot of cases, as the real question is 'which will reduce the amount of time to complete the run more?'. There is definitely a sense of satisfaction in knowing you have the best bar-none. The DM Team, however, has to scale loot sustainably. That means making the kinds of calculations you're talking about in those two sentences, offering new properties (like Vacuum survival), and so on. Vacuum survival will be completely worthless in current value until the first vacuum area, and incredibly valuable once Atropus hits. Part of me wants to keep it off most things until then, because it will make it easier to make that area the most challenging in the game. Imagine having to give up a ring or even a helmet slot entirely just to get it. In which case, we can put nothing but it on an item, and it's still best-in-slot for Atropus. From the Team's perspective, this makes adding new properties far better than adding better items. They're easier to balance, and still provide value, in that they can't be obtained with more advantageous properties elsewhere. As to balancing, consider the effect the XR weapons have had - and that was anticipated. The unanticipated things can be even more problematic. Hopefully this gives you all some insight into what I'm looking for in item suggestions. That said, something that would help, and which I'm also going to post requesting in the other thread, is: Please show what item the proposed item would be replacing in one of your toons.This makes it easier to make the calculations described above. It doesn't have to be an item you actually own, either, just what you would plan to use absent the proposed item. It's ok if you don't, as I don't want to deter suggestions, but it will definitely speed things up on the development side. A very good point, and something we've learned. That's partly why you see us shying away from slotted gear class abilities these days (that, and we have much more proficient coders then back then). On that note, if you want to propose an alternative to the Ely armor for threaders, please do so. That may not excite a ton of people just now, but we're committed to making all the quasis/prestiges/classes useful in the end. This is partly why new attributes like those you proposed make excellent set loot. Though there will be higher and better set loot in Atropus, and possibly in the other EE areas. For your reference, planned areas: 75-80: . eea_ - Atropus (80) . eep_ - Pandorym (78) . eer_ - Ragnorra (76) 70-75: . eeh_ - Hulks of Zoretha (74) . eel_ - Leviathan (74) . eek_ - Kyuss (72) . eef_ - Father Llymic (72) UNUSED EEs: . ees_ - Sertrous . eez_ - Zargon 70: . lim_ - Limbo . mec_ - Mechanus 55-60: . ele_ - Archomentals . cel_ - Celestia . arb_ - Arborea . had_ - Hades
The number on Limbo and Mechanus is out of date, as it wound up being slated as 60-65, with a Corestat valuation of 63 (based on average level range). CF Llymic at 72, Ragnorra at 76, Atropus at 80.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 19:05:01 GMT
+2 SP on paragon would be in line, but the approval has to come from devs. Perhaps a conversation they should have at this point. I kinda feel like +1 sp and 1-2 other specials that widen the oppourtunities feels better than flat power +2 SP. Odds are, +2 sp would be better, but opening that means another headache for anyone not using them and the devs in critter development; do they need to calculate every mob as if the caster has +2 sp item + ego + +2 sp aug or not? What if they don't have those, do they just not land anything ever? It's a can of worms I don't want to be in charge of opening. Im ok with +2 if other properties are not improvements. +1 if the item is close to what's already best-in-slot, likely. Funky
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