|
Post by gladi8or on Feb 27, 2020 23:20:52 GMT
Starting a new thread as requested.
When playing barbarians who are using large weapons and a shield, when you swap a weapon, you automatically become a medium sized character. You are then forced to hit the shapestrong rage item in your inventory (quick slot) then re-equip your shield. this causes two extra steps when you swap weapons. This is not something seen in another other class.
It's quite frustrating when fighting mobs. You lose ac from the shield and have to play around before you can attack again. This can lead to death. I would really like to see this changed somehow. My suggestion would be that once you hit the shapestrong and are considered large, you stay that way. Or some type of command to toggle back to medium if you wish... which I doubt anyone would.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Feb 27, 2020 23:48:44 GMT
Many would. You retain 20% of your 2h multiplier if you are medium while using a large weapon with a shield after shapestrong. It's cumbersome but it's more damage than staying large with shield (and essentially just being a sword&board barb).
Personally my barb is just a glasscannon using 2h, no interaction with shapestrong whatsoever. That's also why most newer barbs go Monk - because monk AC is op.
|
|
|
Post by therealmilli on Feb 27, 2020 23:50:17 GMT
I feel your pain. I fixed that problem by making a new Barbarian, called CoT.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Feb 27, 2020 23:54:41 GMT
I feel your pain. I fixed that problem by making a new Barbarian, called CoT. I made a fighter
|
|
|
Post by gladi8or on Feb 28, 2020 1:41:45 GMT
I feel your pain. I fixed that problem by making a new Barbarian, called CoT. Hahaha, great response. Love it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 1:44:14 GMT
I turned my barbarian into a pariah. Lol
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 28, 2020 2:19:57 GMT
Ok, so that was as intended, and not antiex as I thought. We could do away with it if barbs are otherwise disfavored, I think.
May be time to start up a thread ranking builds from best to worst.
Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Feb 28, 2020 2:39:20 GMT
Barbs aren't bad. They just don't get free dodgy stuff, and not getting hit is better than getting hit. They can do damage, but that requires going Con instead of Dex which means getting hit, so either you sacrifice damage (and would be better off playing something else) or defense (and be better off playing something else) or be super CLUNK with crappy swapping for a good middle ground with 20% and defenses (better off playing... another game, that is not fun at all gameplay-wise).
But yeah, barbs aren't bad. They still get a lot of stats, crit immunity (conditional), barb rage... I really want to make my barb work, and it does work, but just not as comfortably as the other stuff.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 28, 2020 3:01:01 GMT
Would the proposed edit put them more on par, or take them past the 'other stuff'?
Funky
|
|
|
Post by gladi8or on Feb 28, 2020 4:20:59 GMT
I think it would put them on par because that's the only issue with them. While they can't self-buff, they can wield a large weapon and a shield which is really nice. But, swapping weapons is currently a pain. Fear aura is also a nice feat. I don't want then to be above other classes per say. Thank you for your consideration to this change. Given the fact they can wield a large weapon and shield puts then on par with a self-buffer who must dual wield the same sized weapon without the benefits a shield could provide.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Feb 28, 2020 7:23:01 GMT
just to be clear, what do you mean by "that was as intended, not antiex as I thought?" Does this refer specifically to the step of being forced to medium size? If so, I take this to mean that, despite an initial hunch that the reset to medium was an anti exploit, it was in fact just intentional (for other reasons...?) I always assumed it was neither an anti exploit nor intentional for any reason; I thought it was just part of the way it worked and an unfortunate consequence of the shapestrong thing.
So why does it even exist then? Er, not to be trollish but why was this never mentioned before? You're saying the infamous "clunky cumbersome barb shapestrong size unequip blah blah thing" that everyone hates was, in fact, this entire time just some intended thing that can be undone at any time?
Please do so, yes...
Back on topic, though, I'd be careful about really moving into an entire "buff barbs" direction, esp. in regards to 2h; first off, despite the fact that the counter-nerf hit them a bit too hard while power creep made other 2hers equally or more viable (hence the new meta of barbs that are just normal 2hers not even utilizing SS), barb is still a very good class and it definitely comes heavily-loaded in terms of both NWN goodies and HG goodies as well. That said, i'll leave 2h derail alone and conclude with: I doubt there is a single person who would vote against deleting whatever extra steps were tacked onto (again--if I understand this correctly) Shapestrong size changes, so please do this, it would be like the People's Choice Award of all updates rn
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Feb 28, 2020 16:59:09 GMT
I don't understand what the proposed change is If I understood correctly, gladi8or wants to stay large and keep swinging a large weapon with a shield? That's just any character sword&board who can use large weapons as 1h for flavour, no benefits, WEAK. Shapestrong might as well not exist if that is the case, except for flavour. If you can remain large, keep 20% 2h multiplier (instead of usual 40%) but get to wear a shield, and have no issues swapping weapons - then Barbs will be strong contenders for top TANKs (not general melee) in the game. Not in damage, but in durability and utility they make up what they lack in damage. In current Limbo farming meta, barbs wouldn't be top dogs (because damage is king, we already manage to make fairly unkillable 40% modifier chars, whats the benefit of even more defenses if we do it with 20% multiplier) but would arguably be THE best starting melee character in the game for any new player, and provide an absolute powerhouse for parties - and possibly be a super nice frontliner in future areas thanks to them being... Beefy, and providing fear aura. Caveat: If dualwielding is reworked to be compareably strong to 2h and barbs would get free weaponswitching while retaining all extra attacks from a doubleweapon and get to use a shield while at it, it would be one of if not the best melee type character in the game. Currently I would love to play a doubleweapon Barb with a shield if not for the immeasurably miserable weapon swapping scenario - you need to be able to hit key targets, and that is way too often not the case for a Barb due to healing issues.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 28, 2020 18:05:09 GMT
just to be clear, what do you mean by "that was as intended, not antiex as I thought?" Does this refer specifically to the step of being forced to medium size? If so, I take this to mean that, despite an initial hunch that the reset to medium was an anti exploit, it was in fact just intentional (for other reasons...?) I always assumed it was neither an anti exploit nor intentional for any reason; I thought it was just part of the way it worked and an unfortunate consequence of the shapestrong thing. When he initially raised this in the other thread, I thought he was running into a weapon-swapping antiexploit which prevents zillions of bonus attacks. When he described in detail, it was clear it was the intended shapestrong behavior. While I haven't peeped the code, yes, I think so, because we were concerned about the balance implications. I know the issue was debated. Why? How people would vote doesn't concern me. If we went by voting, our server would have tanked long ago, because players would (almost) never vote for nerfs, and balancing without them is not sustainable. I've written enough on that subject to fill a few textbooks by now, I think. Instead, I'm curious about balance implications, and how far barbs are actually behind all the rest. I get not liking cumbersome mechanics, but generally they are there for a reason, or we would have removed them. I'm happy to reconsider such things if it won't create more balancing issues than it resolves, however, which is why I asked about the likely actual effect. After finishing reading your post - and thank you for keeping it succinct - I'm not sure where you fall. You agree we should do it, but then warn about buffing barbs. Can I conclude that you think this edit would not make them too powerful vs other two-handers? Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 28, 2020 18:07:59 GMT
If you can remain large, keep 20% 2h multiplier (instead of usual 40%) but get to wear a shield, and have no issues swapping weapons - then Barbs will be strong contenders for top TANKs (not general melee) in the game. Not in damage, but in durability and utility they make up what they lack in damage. In current Limbo farming meta, barbs wouldn't be top dogs (because damage is king, we already manage to make fairly unkillable 40% modifier chars, whats the benefit of even more defenses if we do it with 20% multiplier) but would arguably be THE best starting melee character in the game for any new player, and provide an absolute powerhouse for parties - and possibly be a super nice frontliner in future areas thanks to them being... Beefy, and providing fear aura. This is my concern. We're not likely to edit dualweilding too much, but rather create play environments where it is more valuable. Funky
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Feb 28, 2020 19:00:02 GMT
If Barb's were permanently large(r) (or medium if small race) a simpler 20% damage bonus while not receiving wisdom AC would make everyone happy. No pain to swap weapons and no overlap with other classes' wisdom AC builds. If the damage is built in the shape size change (that already costs ac and requires control class).
They could even go 2 handed without a shield for a larger damage boost when lacking wisdom and shield AC that no one would blink an eye.
I don't think keeping any double weapon sinergy is worth any hassle though. Although I wouldn't mind if such weapons had the %dmg bonus from two handed grip if their critical damage was marginally worse anyway.
|
|