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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 3:07:05 GMT
As we look to implementing Mechanus, we'll have a second area in which canopics can be obtained. While I'm not eager to speed their acquisition, I DO want to ensure the runs on which you can get them are not so time-consuming as to block a large chunk of the playerbase from participation.
That said, we're looking to address Limbo's issues with a few additional tweaks, but we need to understand what slows it down. I know white and black slaadi, and their summons, are a big part. I also know the lack of instakills plays a role.
The new Mechanus areas should be faster to run, simply by virtue of having fewer areas to pass through. If you're a patron, you've already seen the map, and if not, you'll be able to see it later this month. End plug. Anyway, concurrennt with Mechanus' release, we want to ease Limbo a bit, but I need to understand the whys. If they whys are as listed above, then any suggestions for targeted edits would be appreciated.
One idea I had, by way of example (and this does NOT mean we are doing this), would be a cloak or other item that, so long as worn when rested, permitted the use of an additional Drawmij's Preclusion per rest. I do wonder if dismissal/banish is seeking enough use with the non-gated spawns, but there's no time-efficient way for me to find out other than to ask.
I'm also aware that there's been plenty of discussion of this issue on the boards. I tried surfing for some, but quickly wound up lost in the weeds. If you want to reference posts, by all means do so, though it'd be helpful if you indicate if anything in them is not still relevant.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 3:19:31 GMT
Manuka and I got Limbo Part 2 Hardmodes down to under 1.5 hours. We would mass every single map though. Spawn the entire map, Drawmij's to pull all mobs too you BUT the spawns, kill everything, and then go kill the casters by themselves when you can avoid being overrun by spawns.
I think if you capped the total number of summons, and don't let summons also summon, you'd do yourself a lot of favors. I can't speak for other groups but we LOVED seeing White and Black, we did all we could to increase randoms to get more of them. They aren't the issues in my mind. The run was created with it being more tank-centric. If you reduce / cap / eliminate the summons, you fix the length problem.
I don't think allowing a second Drawmij's, or making it dependent on an item is the solution. Neither truly solve the problem. If you truly want to fix it just adjust how the summons happen.
Also, the majority of the population doesn't like the tank-centric meta and as a result, the second you drop Mechanus you are eliminating the bulk of the population ever going Limbo because of this fact. This may or may not be deemed a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 7:47:44 GMT
The whites and blacks are only "exciting" because they drop the canos.
Map 2 in part 2 is excessively sloggy with nightmare combinations of spawns. Most parties skip this map altogether. Plus, not many canos drop on that map making it seem more annoying.
No one runs limbo prt 2 hard in 1.5 hrs right now and it will be quite a while before that happens again. Typical hard modes are more like 2.5 hrs.
I think 2 hrs should be the very max for any run in my opinion otherwise the time sink negates the reward. Invis purge is a necessity to make the run faster and pigeon holes the need for a ranger type.
The kaorti add to the slog in the amount of time it takes to beat them down. Same with the paragon blacks, deaths and whites produced from high demi count toons. Unfinished titans and amorphions can add beat down time as well. Perhaps lower the temp hit points would help.
The combination of mobs are fun but the time involved gets old. I agree that limiting the summons would help. Banish is used but the SR can still make it hard to land even with NB.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 18:01:38 GMT
Thank you, this is some very helpful info. We will eventually prevent skipping of map 2 part 2, once we have addressed the slog in other ways. The specific information about mobs is extremely helpful. Also, consider: what does this suggest for Mechanus loot? What about an item that boosts the SR of Banish? If that would be too OP, could limit it to vs. Chaotic, which definitely fits Mechanus. Bear in mind that Mechanus is the plane of Law, and is diametrically opposed to Chaos. It would make sense to have loot that helped in Limbo. And we really need loot in Limbo. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 18:47:02 GMT
I think that would be great. It could also help in the Abyss which to effectively do limbo or Mechanus you’re going to want those prince wins. It helps facilitate a more caster centric party in limbo if a group doesn’t want to be majorly dependent on tanks.
An item like this though shouldn’t be viewed as the fix for the summons problem, just as a way to assist.
I think your list of priorities for this should be (In order of what I perceive to impact run time best.)
- Eliminating summons completely. - Preventing a summoned mob from summoning more mobs. - Capping the number of total mobs that can be summoned by creatures who can summon. - As mentioned, create an item which helps with banish SR. - Create an item which increases use of Nature’s Frailty, which removes concealment, useable for the big nasties and easing the parties ability to absorb them / SR drop for big nasties. - An item which grants extra uses of Drawmijs Preclusion.
For items which allow extra uses like above, we need to ensure that either A) It is a strong item so it can cover things the casters will need as well as offer these benefits, or not be required to be worn while resting so it can be a quick swap on, use, swap off. The Abyss had some items which do some nice things but ultimately are terrible and aren”t worth wearing because of it.
For my part, I LOVE the varied spawns you get in Limbo. I think if you just reduce the total number of spawn points on map 2 by 1/3 - 1/2 you make it enjoyable while speeding it up.
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Post by woqued on Mar 3, 2020 19:25:48 GMT
Considering the SR of the summoned critters is between 95 and... 103 for elite deaths? Unless the SRs have been adjusted? 1 or even 2 points of SR on one spell (albeit good in this particular zone) is not very impressive for a set piece if it competes with other quality sets or XRs. A Cloak maybe, +2 sr to banish/unname with good stats otherwise and a cyclable slots for wiz/sorc/cleric/druid might make for a solid set piece that at least makes it a feasible endeavour. Generally, landing spells on these things is difficult even after NB.
So, on a regular cast, after NB dropping SR by 16 (assume 39/1 no ego regular druid) using an abo torch for +1 spen, sporting a 70 spellpen. regular mud slaadi at 95 sr will drop down to 79, so we will land a banish bit more than half the time after nb pre new item, and that's on the absolute lowest easiest possible target before taking any saves into account. With the item we are lookin much better - around 75% success rate for a regular druid with paragon spellpen and paragon transmutation.
For sorcs the odds are looking better; in particular if you can land a drain or two (not always an easy task, still gotta penetrate the sr and saves for that spell too) or if you have time to assay the summoned mobs, but if you have time to assay them then its possible you should've just hit them on something else. That's assuming the druid is in a position to land the nb in a difficult spawn in the first place, or has slots to do it; and AFTER that you can start trying to land. Theres more reasons as to why tank meta took over; it is much simpler to execute. Frustration from NB not happening etc etc is a big deal - and relying on AoE bestow curse + assay is a poor option - so banish spell pen seems like a good call even if we want to keep the area tank-centric; this should not intervene with that too heavily, I don't think.
Or gloves with +2 to banish spell and stats such as 25/- all phys dr 15% all phys imm + fluff stats
Or a similar set piece that makes Druid Unname affect targets in small radius around the target (these would make a nice Set - gloves + cloak for instance) - note that sacrificing two item slots that generally are either asmo artifact or the items that you use for defensive purposes just to become a banishing god would come at a very substantial defensive cost, and be very zone-specific setup to run. But it would add depth and interesting sets to seek out for specific characters. I like situational gear, but it has to be good enough to warrant taking inventory space - and they would preferably have to be in slots that don't compete with spell slot items so as to minimize slotting pains (so gloves are looking pretty nice here).
Combination: Cloak with slots, 10-15% physical immunity, +2 banish/unname spen (successor to Tia gear with banish special) Gloves with 25-30/- phys dr, 10-15% phys immunity, and makes Unname apply in a small radius around target
Or we could give Pale Masters Harm in small radius around target and that could help with dealing with the Slaadi as well. Edit: nvm that, after further thinking I'm pretty sure slaadi are immune to harm and it only works on the p1 critters. Oh well.
Making conceal dropping and/or infliction more attainable would directly cut down into run times and less forced ranger/shifterlash+hulksmash -type lineups - or introducing a regen-blocking mechanic. Regen is a very prominent mechanic in Limbo - which in general I like because it promotes beating down the same targets, but they are quite... Large, and become substantially harder to deal with as paragon tiers go up.
For instance a set item that makes taunting effects apply a small concealment drop (including those aoe variants from Dwarven Defenders and Warchanters, and the skill itself) due to the monsters losing some of their stealthy ways and party members being more attentive since someone in your party succesfully distracted a monster audibly - or making Spot apply a conceal drop.. But these are a tad harder to implement and require more meticulous planning to land in a place where they aren't too strong I suppose. Then again, we already have Rangers and MSD from Arcanes, so I feel like melees having more agency and control over this mechanic would be superb - and help with the sloggy Limbo.
... Sorry for the walls again, but I think it's useful input.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 19:34:57 GMT
- Eliminating summons completely. Not gonna happen. Very fast and easy to do. Will do this. When you say 'increases use', do yo you mean a buff that makes it more useful by dropping conceal? I don't think we will go there, as that's stepping on rangers. We could have an item buff it in other ways, though. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 19:41:12 GMT
Natures Frailty already removes all buffs and concealment on any mobs it hits, on top of dropping its SR the extra amount. Create an item which allows the Druid to use this epic a few more times. With PSK Abjuration you get two uses per rest. 4-6 per rest would be swell.
Also I edited my quoted post above. Please check out the rest.
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Post by woqued on Mar 3, 2020 20:16:00 GMT
Natures Frailty already removes all buffs and concealment on any mobs it hits, on top of dropping its SR the extra amount. Create an item which allows the Druid to use this epic a few more times. With PSK Abjuration you get two uses per rest. 4-6 per rest would be swell. Also I edited my quoted post above. Please check out the rest. I am 95% sure it is not supposed to drop Concealment. Are you sure you are not mixing it up with MSD ? Also, that many epic/paragon uses on an item would have to be really plain item otherwise, it's a huge amount of power and only makes a bot caster whose sole purpose is to spam those on spawns while tanks maul the rest more enticing as a playstyle.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 4, 2020 5:17:33 GMT
Natures Frailty already removes all buffs and concealment on any mobs it hits, on top of dropping its SR the extra amount. Create an item which allows the Druid to use this epic a few more times. With PSK Abjuration you get two uses per rest. 4-6 per rest would be swell. Also I edited my quoted post above. Please check out the rest. It removes buffs, but not conceal, unless the conceal happens to come from one of the buffs. Funky
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Post by simpetar on Mar 4, 2020 12:35:59 GMT
One thing I find irritating is the amount of cloud spells from caster slaadi in p2. It can ramp up to such extent that it can slow a run due to lag, potentially even players crashing / server shutdown. AFAIK the limit on clouds for players was introduced primarily for the purpose of reducing lag, it would be nice to have such limit for monsters (slaadi) as well.
P.S. This goes for other runs too, in particular tia and the fogs from nightmares. I know they are suposed to be gusted right away, but the danger should be coming from the cloud itself, not from the fps issues it causes.
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Post by chirality on Mar 4, 2020 17:24:07 GMT
i really dislike the idea of tying anything extremely important, from either a class-centric or run-centric perspective, to a piece of gear. By this I mean pally crit gloves (should be a feat or class feature build choice), turner plant robes (same), sorc PM abostaff (not a class or feat type thing but it lets you do something we should be able to do normally anyway). 2 exceptions, from opposite sides of the spectrum, are HS boots (5 level PrC tied to 1 item is not so ridiculous, the boots are balanced very well as proven by 10-15?yrs of the class being consistently popular and strong regardless of the rest of the meta), and AA bows (the structured and well-managed bow system, that seems old enough to have grown organically with most of the mod itself in terms of drop locations etc, the fact that the class literally must be tied to goofy items, it's fine) anyway, yeah. without getting too wallish, FunkySwerve , I know that anti-run item niche is super important to your balancing worldview but I think limbo stuff needs something other than "invent items that make the slogginess better", I don't mean that in a sarcastic way I just think that it's already so hard to deal with endgame when it feels like you're constantly pigeonholed into must-have-ing this ring and that ring or that helmet and that other ring or these 2 rings and that boots or that cloak hat and boots or now this glove those 2 rings and this cloak, i dunno, at some point i just feel like when the amount of specialized equipment you're wearing overrides your build or the other awesome gear you lovingly collected, it just feels like the run is just too much of a dick. I hate to say it but as much as I love the aesthetic, so pretty nice clean white numbers!--but wearing all set loot is wack and boring and feels lame. I know collectable stuff that is designed to ease / must be worn for the run is a classic HG trope but it's one I don't care for very much. any slot that improves my ability to banish or penetrate SR or land DCs vs literally ANY limbo mob, will definitely be a must-have always-worn item, that goes for sorc or tank...if i have to pick between Unname Gloves or Banishmaster Gloves or literally anything else, i will definitely pick it, just like if my tank gets a bracer that drops conceal, i will definitely use it, there is nothing that exceeds the importance of this, so yeah item-create away, i'm not trying to troll or say don't, these would be nice but as long as the discrepancy between *having* and *not having* these type of items is so stark--and i dont mean that in an economic have/havenot way--then the meta will always be to *have* these items, there's not much critical choice involved in "to wear or not to wear" when not wearing it is either a) leading to a swift demise--mords dispel pwk plode etc; or b) vastly less powerful and a factor on runtime by either reducing the rate/efficiency at which enemies are debuffed, reducing the "potential" success rate of spells landing or reducing tank's "potential" DPS--wrap on toon lacking 16bab, fistwrap on a mage, abo torch on a druid, chorus on a bard wholeheartedly agree with simp finally, what about GI as a vehicle for anti-summonses? inhibitor field that prevents summons (smaller aoe) or maybe reduces their power (larger aoe, colossal even, causes summoned slaads to spawn at lower HD/paragon status, or downgrades "class" of slaad spawned?), Banishmeister Grenade that coats mobs with a fine glitterdust-esque powder of exotic extraplanar minerals that critically reduces an outsider's ability to remain anchored to a summoned plane or point (-save, -SR, both, vs banishing spells), Unname Bolts that have a high DC slay racial group onhit, i dunno, but I think GI is perfect for the theme. In fact I would like to see limbo used as a means to explore GI into a cooler "gatecrasher" type concept that would (imho) fit better into HG's plane-crawling vibe; anyway GI def has some flavor and room to get loaded up with outsider-neutering buffs if you ask me. -Silver Flechette Sabot Anti-Astral-Presence rounds, designed specifically to sever an enemy's silver cord with a barrage of razor-sharp blade-shaped shrapnel, formed of a secret GI alchemical substance that replicates the silver sword material of the githyanki. slay racial group gith, elf whatever or somehow astral creature specific dmg our instakill etc. -Psinet Inhibitor Cache; it's a soup/zone formed of another secret metal, stranded into microscopically-thin wires that unfold over the area and create a dissonant effect on psionic activity and decelerate the transmission of psionic waveform thru the planar medium; gives psionic dmg resist, gives psionic KB immunity, prevents or disrupts or slows or debuffs anything that could be imaginably linked to psionic activity (various spells and special abilities of various limbo mobs). or maybe it functions like a psionic magnet and attracts psionic activity into it (absorbs X uses/"casts" of a mob's summon ability) i dunno sorry derail
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Post by woqued on Mar 4, 2020 17:37:18 GMT
How about introducing an Augmenter that grants +2 banish pen, non-stacking with others of the same augmenter? Middle-ground choice, and much stronger but takes an augmenter slot. Basically a droppable ego, but much more specific than an Ego so less universally OP. Yes, it is very, very strong. But it also gives us a huge reason to run something and gives gearing a whole new realm of options - and more competition.
Same principle could be introduced elsewhere, and if we create - say - 8 different similar augmenters on this drop location for different things, they would be quite the endgame chaser. Not sure I like the idea of 8, I'd prefer 4 in two different drop locations, but that would be a harder sell.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 4, 2020 20:55:14 GMT
One thing I find irritating is the amount of cloud spells from caster slaadi in p2. It can ramp up to such extent that it can slow a run due to lag, potentially even players crashing / server shutdown. AFAIK the limit on clouds for players was introduced primarily for the purpose of reducing lag, it would be nice to have such limit for monsters (slaadi) as well. P.S. This goes for other runs too, in particular tia and the fogs from nightmares. I know they are suposed to be gusted right away, but the danger should be coming from the cloud itself, not from the fps issues it causes. I'll look at adding this if its still an issue after the edit to summoning. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 4, 2020 21:05:22 GMT
anyway, yeah. without getting too wallish, FunkySwerve , I know that anti-run item niche is super important to your balancing worldview I would agree or disagree but I have no idea what you mean. So do I. Hence me agreeing to block summonses from summoning a few posts up. Great idea. Definitely doing either banishing grenades or the Banishmeister debuffer. Not sure I agree with this potential-wise. Much harder to do with already-made areas without major investment in dev time and unintended consequences. Native creatures don't have silver cords. Slaying racial groups I would probably give to rangers first, though I won't rule it out. I would probably just implement this as a shield, but we're carefully avoiding giving players too much in the way of protection from esoterics. Not sure where we are at on psionic, but there's plenty of easier ways to buff GI, and as you say, this is OT. Funky
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