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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 3:20:42 GMT
So, I have some understanding of the current state of affairs on the server, and we're working to boost some less-used classes, but I wanted a quick reality check.
I know that wizards are still inferior to sorcs, and dexers to str builds, generally speaking. I also know that GIs are in terrible shape. Also threaders (not forgotten, just long-languishing).
What other builds are in need of a boost (other than the tweak to barbs under discussion in the other thread)?
Thanks, Funky
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Post by woqued on Mar 3, 2020 9:49:50 GMT
As a friend reminded me of a dev quote, "players are almost always correct with pointing out the problem, and almost always dead wrong with suggesting the solution" so i'll stick to pointing out problems. * is added before the class name if they really need help and when someone brings one most agree it is pretty much for novelty where they want it to be awesome but it just isn't. If there's no *, it's sorta fine but I want to grumble. Base classes are in a good shape. - Wizards are "fine" too - they're just not as good or fun as sorcs, but they are more flexible. They're doing better than fist monks. * - Fist monks need help. They are in every way inferior to ones using weapons, but mostly they just lack damage for something that just punches things and provides little else in way of utility. Monk weapons and gloves having such abysmal crit stats is a huge downer. Sure they hit often, but comparatively everyone here having haste and harpers and divine powers on the table means their many attacks aren't quite as many as they might be in some other environment. In general, monk splashing something else is better than playing a monk, but that's not the scope of this thread and not necessarily a bad thing anyway. Monks have their speed and some other fun to them. But the fisters need help. Prestige classes: * - Arcane Archers (but likely fixed with new Bows if they are stronk) - old bows still fall quite far behind other DB weapons while providing little to no utility depending on level spread. There was a thread on this, but it wasn't the best kind. * - Dwarven Defenders - they have AC, some very basic durability/stats and taunt in their kit, not much else. Really boring, not really bringing much to the table in any way and sorely lacking for utility, offense or crit imm that isn't a travesty to use due to immobilization. * - Dragon Diciples - lacks Crit imm/Conceal/Ac for 2h builds so the huge weapon builds are a downer, on 1h builds still lacks Crit imm/Conceal but doesn't provide enough utility/damage to warrant fun either (and aren't that tanky or do damage due to lacking useful splashing potential and the aforementioned crit imm/conceal). They are stat bags with hellballs which sometimes are useful but not enough of to make much use. Their lack of splashing potential limits the class severely in ways that their inherent bonuses do not make up for. * - Assas sin - plays like a bad rogue. Low defenses that aren't made up for with assassin-like high offense; designated XR races have odd feat/skill allocations, there were pretty big threads on this. - I want to say Pale Masters, but others have more to say there. - Weapon Masters are ok, but most of the time they play like a weaker Fighter with WM splash. Their critty uniqueness is largely diminished by many other classes having easy time splashing WM. Quasiclasses: I'm tempted to say all of them, but for that's not very helpful. * - Bane Knights - I don't know the class well enough to say much here and don't want to study them, but nobody plays them even after the spell changes(?), not even Raj. He tried, but he felt pretty bad doing it iirc. * - Bloodfire Mage / Dragonstorm Mage: lack unique mechanics/tools and/or raw power to make up for them being so one-dimensional. - Dwarven Warchanters are still alright but could still use a little bump, more specifically the *CC:Dwarven Defender ones. Again, lack of useful splashing freedom sets a class quite far back similarly to RDDs, but these guys at least have both defenses and a bunch of utility and due to conceal/crit imm can pull off a 2h build, but not very easily and still inferior to other 2h options. 1h warchanters don't seem to bring enough utility compared to other choices like inflictors (shifterlash, lash) and battleclerics, but aoe taunt is really cool on 1h builds. The DwD CC ones are crap regardless of what you do currently. * - Herald of Storms - lacks epics bad. They should have access to their Ench/Conj epics and paragons. Partywide kickback mechanics hardcounter the entire class, fast parties make them play out poorly. They have niches that are useful, just not very universal. Don't understand the -4 CON upon qualifying, seems unnecessarily punishing like many other Quasi defects/requirements; but they do get a decent amount of feats. * - Lifethreaders you mentioned. * - GIs you mentioned. * - Staffmasters lack punch. Again, limited splashing hurts the class in a way that their unique powers currently simply don't make up for, and staves 0% multiplier killed them - now with XR weapons it went from bad to muuuuch worse. Others have more to say on this than I. *? - Divine Slingers - they face similar issues as AAs do. Simply not enough flat boomboom, and Slingers are plagued by poor damage selections on ammo somewhat unlike AAs, but they provide a lot of utility. Hard to say how much help they need, they are clerics after all which provides a lot of base oomph. Just not as good as other clerics in so many ways, and have bigger trouble splashing than other clerics due damage/specials being tied to Slinger levels. Not sure why weapon buffs (among some other spells) aren't slinger spells as they are clerics well versed in imbuing things so they lose out on some utility compared to normal clerics on the spell front with the spell selection, it's already hurting enough that you are using a sling instead of doing more pressing things like punching instead. The forced divine exotic damage means they have issues hitting some key targets. - Theurges are ok, but wizbased ones have the wizard issues. - Lash of Hatred is ok, just not as good as a shifterlash. The tear between bg (low selection) and ranger (high selection but low infliction and worse otherwise) is a pain. All of the cool stuff is tied to BG including better stats so it's not reeeeeeally a choice, you are essentially forced to be BG as Lash but feel bad about the enemy selection, and do not benefit from ranger stuff due whips being 1h and no off-hand allowed only. - Pariahs are still alright but they lost all their unique shine with majority of Trans spells getting hit - Disintegrate nerfs (added mob immunities to anti-pariah mobs), RG nerfs (deserved, but spell got killed), Flensing nerfs(deserved, but spell got killed), Poison/Ability Decrease Nerfs so Bestow Curse is less fun to play off others with and in general less useful. 20/20 is the one that got hit hard, especially with Limbo really quite requiring Epics (non-trans ones at that) for smooth passage. Now they're buff bots for Mag/GMW and have their SR speciality, not much else. Sorc CC pariahs are still sorcs so they're ok and they bring the buffs to the table.
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 3, 2020 11:58:58 GMT
- Palemaster: Correction: Destruction Desintegrate should be a PMA spell. Way too many enemies are completly immune to feathmagics and their power is very gimped in 60+ areas. If the current bug wouldnt be, i´d let my pma stay an LL farmer. This feels like wiz should be to me. Higher spellpower than a sorc, but you have to be more picky with your spells due to slot restrictions. - Wizards: XR Races for wizard that are not elf based and dont have able learner ability... I guess I can put something into ride. - Dwarven Defender: The Crit/KD-Imm is nice on paper, but in server reality it makes it unusable. Takes too long to activate and you are defenceless until it activates = dead if heavily surrounded (for limbo at least). Personally I also avoid to use it, cause I loose any ability to support my team quickly where needed. The taunt from the aura has no effect at all. Just a plain taunt that may or may not keep a monster focused on you. Ideas: Would be nice if it had some extra like the fear aura of a barb. E.g. bigger radius or have a certain % to guarantee the mob to focus on you. The KB-Shield aint really helping in any way. It´s damage output is laughable and get´s often completly absorbed, and 10 points of damage will hardly help against 600 from a spell to keep the aggro (unless it is coded differently, what I cannot say). Also causes kb itself. Idea: make it a retribution damage shield for incoming hits with a certain %% of damage thrown back at the attacker. Personal issue I have with em: it´s a dualwielder with dwd axes. Twice the amount of weapons needed and completly specialized to it. I don´t even wanna imagine how long it will take me to get even one, let alone pairs of limbo weapons for it. It´s a luxury problem, but still doesnt feel fair to pay double for lesser offence power in comparison to other tanks und absolute no weapon flexibility. Mod issue I see with dwds: As the mod is, heavy high damage hitters are many times more favorable to use, than a classic wall or soak tank. - You have many more attacks incomming and for that you get much more inflictions - you need way longer to kill something, again granting it more chances of hits and inflictions - inflictions grow to rapidly to react (hence I suggested in another thread to reduce the incomming inflictions for dwds as a specialty of the class, inspired by the autorestore for cots) - Light armor (less defences but higher AC) is basically your only choice, since avoiding getting hit as much as possible is key for survival.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 3, 2020 12:28:53 GMT
I'd put Wizard and Fist Monks due their being quite emblematic classes. Fist Monks have a few issues - their weapon take an armor slot, restricting their defenses. Their damage is low (even more so when compared to a shifter's flesh golem) and their abilities (stun, daze and instant kill) have low/inconsistent DC and few usages. Changing how they interact with wisdom, by having DC based on character level (like greater ruin) while wisdom mod dramatically increases their effect durations, punch damage and ki point pool could help. I'm under the impression staff monk suffer similarly due how 2 handed damage was nerfed for staffmasters. Monk -Quarterstaves receive Wisdom mod bonus to damage when wielded by a character monk with 21 monk levels (not including LL). -Legendary Monk's unarmed Enchantment bonus is changed to 1 per 2 Monk levels (not including LL). While unarmed Physical Imm is increased by a % equal to Wisdom modifier. -Stunning fist is applied to every unarmed melee attack for character with 21 monk levels (not including LL) - causing stun (i.e. same of whirlwind) -Quivering Palm recharges every 30 seconds -Legendary Ability Bonus: Legendary Monks receive +1 Wisdom at legendary levels 45, 50, 55 and 60. Wizards have a natural problem in how spellbook memorization is so boring. Some simpler buffs could make them more appealing tough: Wizard -Epic spells from specialized chosen school can be used one more time per day (for up to x3 epic with PSK) -Wizards with 25+ levels that don't belong to a quasiclass get get Epic Polymath (for epic spells) for free at level 41 -Legendary Wizards that don't belong to a quasiclass may specialize in another school using the spell pedestal. -Wizards no longer have to get barred schools to specialize. -Specialist Wizards get paragon spell knowledge for their chosen when they get Paragon spell focus on that school.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 3, 2020 14:54:08 GMT
- Palemaster: Destruction should be a PMA spell. Way too many enemies are completly immune to feathmagics and their power is very gimped in 60+ areas. I assume you mean Heartbane? Destruction makes little sense. HB would be a nice addition, but saying that their power is very gimped in 60+ areas is an overstatement: they pack some of the game's most powerful offensive (Enervation, Wrack), defensive (Rainbow Pattern) and CC (Shadow Conjuration: Web) spells and a variety of other tools if the player does some research of spellbook and monsters. It has to be noted however that the PM bug ruins much of the fun and they do suffer from wizard issues.
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Post by elgrathforestwalke on Mar 3, 2020 16:03:59 GMT
I would like to see some way to make sorc/pm's useable.
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 3, 2020 16:22:47 GMT
PMA lord of decay and death. Y would destruct not be suitable for them? HB would be nice too. And while I do like some sneaky casterplay, being downgraded to use enervate and a few illusion shadowspells without even lore buff and an ED here and there, is really not how I see a PMA to perform in hells and such. I´m not saying they are useless or cannot do some cool stuff, but especially since most things got upped or special imms, it is pretty boring in 60+. To me it feels like driving a 600ps turbo sportscar in a 30 km/h zone with controls everywhere. Without the bug I´d take my Wiz over my Pma without a second thought. And if u need an example for the gimping im talking about: try to kill something with the paragon epic deathspell.... I certainly dont need that to kill advespas or narzugons.
Edit: Meh I meant desintegrate not destructs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 17:09:06 GMT
Doomz, apparently you haven't been to limbo with a well played PM. They are very nice, turning scary mobs into pudding, ie: Rocs. But I suppose everyone wants their favorite class to be the "end all monster uber do it all with one little gi plode."
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 3, 2020 17:35:05 GMT
Doomz, apparently you haven't been to limbo with a well played PM. They are very nice, turning scary mobs into pudding, ie: Rocs. But I suppose everyone wants their favorite class to be the "end all monster uber do it all with one little gi plode." Is there any insight I am not seeing or are you just having a problem with me openly reporting that bug, showing it to the DMs, having a little fun while doing it and not exploiting it in limbo, farming canos and keeping it to myself? Back to topic: - Baneknights: Im trying to figure this class out for a while now, but just cant really get it to fit in anything. Yeah they got a few spellupgrades, but the schools are very spread out and there is nothing really that stands out. They would be my top candidate for the symbols ego, but then again it´s only gsf. Maybe some special ability like a beefed up banish skill or bb9s as a small radius aoe effect or a stronger domination of monsters that can get anything but higher tier devils and demons like PFs or Balors could make them more appealing. We already have fear auras on others like DD, but considering the class, it would fit it as well.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 17:44:51 GMT
Wow, great input so far. Can someone link me to a thorough description of the PM bug mentioned? And does it apply to all PMs or just sorc PMs?
It would also be helpful to know which of these, like AA, are best or easily addressed with gear updates.
Also, which of them are likely discredited due to unique conditions of Limbo (as I suspect Pariahs are - we need a permanent solution to RG, not just permadisabling it in all PL areas, which has never been the plan, but a unique aspect of Limbo due to its highly morphic nature).
Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 17:51:11 GMT
Er, are you guys talking about the fixed GI plode, and not some bug with PMs? Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 3, 2020 17:55:06 GMT
Base classes are in a good shape. Quick comment on this: other than wizzies, this is likely always going to be the case to a degree, but only insofar as compared to quasis or prestiges. This is because they are broader in scope, generally. The more niche a class is, the harder to balance, and the more dependant it is on area-specific edits. Once we finish Atropus, the final EE, we can start going through and retweaking lower-level content to accomodate more quasis and prestiges better. Funky
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 3, 2020 18:42:53 GMT
Maybe allow staffmasters to change damage types also to include slash and pierce ? !dampi !damsl !dambl Let Quarterstaffs do +20% when wielded two handed ? Or if a pure Staffy ? Let them have access to a Holy Sword type spell that dispels on hit like Blackstaff does in normal D&D ?
KE.
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 3, 2020 19:57:18 GMT
Wow, great input so far. Can someone link me to a thorough description of the PM bug mentioned? And does it apply to all PMs or just sorc PMs? Funky At the moment Palemaster can use any spell without restrictions. On top they even get their specific boost they should only get for illusion and necro spells to everything. This applies to wiz based Palemasters. I do have a sorc one, but have not tested if it applies to it too (even if, it´s still not usuable)
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Post by woqued on Mar 3, 2020 19:57:27 GMT
I forgot Smiters from my list. Smiting is outdated and weak at the moment; 100 ab cap is too harsh in modern HG and the damage is also outdated in a realm of XR weapons - and has same issues as RDDs and such that splashing is too limited with this mechanic, losing out way too much to ever match the gains of being a smiter. Not even mentioning the alignment issues limiting zones where they are of use, even ignoring that smiters are way too weak as is.
I said I wouldn't propose changes. I lied.
Proposed change: - Recharge time change: for every level of paladin/bg above 28 gain 5 seconds off the recharge time, and an additional 20 seconds off at pure. This would drop a Pure Smiters recharge timer from 1 minute to 40 seconds. - Include great smite feats in AB gain, raising cap AB from 100 to 110. This means highly splashed paladins (like 31/4/5 build) would still land below 105 ab on smite, and this build would have a 1 minute 35 second cooldown timer and 101 ab on smite. - Change the damage multiplier on Greater Smite (currently Cha Modifier *4 d20 at 10 smite feats) to have 0,4 per 4 pure smiter levels, up to a maximum of *4 at 40; on cookie cutter 31/4/5 build they would have a *2,8 multiplier down from current flat 4, but they would be able to land it and cast it occasionally as well.
Reasoning: it is more fun to use smite more often than smack harder than it does now. You get to use it so seldom that it is not very satisfactory. This would allow more build flexibility, while Pures would get to use it very often and land it accurately.
In practice: non pure smiters would be viable. Pure smiters are the same as now, but with reasonable AB on it and a 1/3 reduction in recharge time. Significant buff right? Yep, but the last time we saw smiters was years ago and those have all been shelfed.
Would a 31/4/5 small sized cha wit rapier smiter be op? Very unlikely not, as there are no viable XR races for it. Alu-Fiend rapier smiters would be a force to be reckoned with (1 handed or dualwielding). Solarborn smiters could go 2handed - I am unsure if they would be too strong, I don't believe so but you never know. It is hard to deal with modern Str/Dex checks and get OP amounts of Charisma at the same time. (By hard I mean impossible. Theres a reason all modern tanks are much higher in both STR and DEX than they used to be, and why we run less divines and more CoTs, Fighters and monk splashers than before). The reasoning is high investment in Str/Dex while reaping rewards of Wis AC. Divines don't have this option; they need CHA, and that's how they've been sort of supplanted as top dogs. Small rapwit smiters were OP decent when they were lvl 80 running around in lower content. Now they are prey to stat checks if they attempt to do it - same applies to smiters of all sizes even XR ones.
Edit: small rapwit paladins were never op, that was a slip of the tongue. They were alright, never anything close to OP. Should reread my stuff more.
Mechanus and Limbo would also be nice drop locations for Smiter set pieces.
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