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Post by woqued on May 10, 2020 16:50:32 GMT
Rogues are currently "fixed" by Divine Power to get BAB, currently that is only tied to a belt from Tragidore and a cloak from Azzagrat pt3. If that full BAB feature of the game was integrated to the class itself somehow - be it just upon hitting 41, or some legendary epode, a rogue special feat they could take pre-LL on their class feats - then rogues would be alright - not great, but alright.
Suggestion: Upon achieving Legendary Levels, Rogues, Shadowdancers, Assassins, RDDs, Monks gain tier 1 BAB.
Reasoning: On HG Legendary Levels, the second class citizens having inferior bab serves no purpose. Fighters and other base/prestige class 1st class citizens receive all sorts of benefits and magical goodies that outrank or are similar to what the other classes get, the BAB is just further divide. At this point, it is a relic of DND since we are -FORCED- to circumvent it with Divine Power items - EVERY COMBAT CASTER has a source for this already on their own. Might as well put it at achieving legendary levels for these classes. We would still splash Fighter if we want weapon spec, the BAB need is a bit much. Combat casters have their Div powers and Tensers and Heroisms elevated to this point - no reason why these other classes are left to bow at the altar of BAB spell casting items.
If some other changes were to be made to Rogues, I would buff up Self Concealment by reducing amount of feats needed to pick it up and/or increase the amount of conceal it provides. 5 feats for undispellable 69% conceal (according to wiki, didn't do math myself) is WEAK when you need Hide to get it as well, and that Hide gets you 61-66% in the party environment of HG for no feat investment whatsoever - and Rogues are featstarved.
Suggestion: Buff Self-Concealment up to ~~75% concealment at rogue 40, and/or reduce amount of feats required. 127 hide should be sufficient requirement, when other classes just cast or toggle similar amounts of concealment on themselves even with splash options, it's a paragon rogue for crying out loud. Surely they are stealthier than many others! Example: Self-C 1 grants Rogue level /2 not counting paragon levels concealment +Hide/4 cap at 31 rounded down total 61% for pure rog at 60. Legendary Self-C increases the number by 5%, Paragon Concealment increases that concealment further by 5% for a total of 3 feats for 71% instead of 5 for 69%, but consumes Legendary/Paragon feats over epic/rogue feats. More concealment for less investment, but forces your hand at LL/PL to get it.
Random note: could give that same Self-Concealment feat access to Assassins btw! For them it could count both assassin/rogue levels for this concealment. 3 feats for Hide-reliant 71% should not be too much to ask.
Upsides of rogue: pick upgrading, imp evasion, crippling strike, oppourtunity, access to epic dodge (with feat investment and dex 30, fighters randomly get this for free at 30), big sneak damage but honestly, mostly only if pure vs a huge chunk of key targets, and only if you invest feats in imp sneak attacks - and QoL autosearch 20 rolls (this should just be baseline for all searching ffs).
Downsides of rogue: Low splash options (stay pure or lose dmg, splash and become a budget melee with pick upgrades and "rogue utility" that any splashed support guy could get), no inherent AC gain, no inherent conceal (Self-Concealment as it is doesn't count, it sucks) no inherent Save sources besides a doubleroll for Will, class feature doesn't stack with OC/DC - best rogue is a port-a-rogue still, so in that way perhaps they could indeed use some help.
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Post by woqued on May 21, 2020 11:27:36 GMT
PDK Suggestion/breakdown:
Heroic Shield: Increase amount from PDK+1 to PDK+Cha mod/3, increase duration to PDK level + Cha modifier rounds - change specifically to make it better earlier in the career of a character. *Edit: Also could add PDK level to Saves when used on self, similar to how Paladins get saves from cha - to make up for lack of access to Divine splash for non-divines to make it so that if there are multiple PDKs to not make the splash ~~useless.
Rallying Cry: Increases Damage by PDK level + Cha mod/5, stacking with bard song but not with other Rallying Crys.
Inspire Courage: No changes.
Fear: Infinite uses.
Oath of Wrath: Also increases DR against all damage types by chosen enemy by 15/-, half stacking with existing DR similar to Aegis/Warding. +2 uses per day, but cancels existing buff if used (so can't have this vs multiple enemy types at once).
Final Stand: Also makes those people immune to all knockdown effects for 1 round + Cha modifier /5 rounds as per UUU does when used by Bard on self. [Edited the base 1 round in].
Reasoning: Currently, they're... Well, they don't really enjoy any benefits other classes do on HG. Compared to counterpart Harper Scout, they have similar requirements to unlock, but don't get their feat costs back in bonus feats, nor do they have an attractive niche (Harper boots) or any useful added skills to use as splash (hide, listen, tumble, pickpocket) Their specialities are made up for by other tools by other classes (dodge ac is readily easily available in AoE by other sources, their specialities don't stack with bards). True Strike is readily available from Druids and several classes have a source of this on their own. They actually have absolutely nothing in their kit besides once per day short lasting crit immunity vs a specific race. They do not do anything, at all. Hence, this is basically suggesting a completely new prestige class, just adding on top of their old stuff to avoid scripting needs.
End results of going PDK Cost: 1 feat, some skill points and 5 class levels and one splash option lock out
Benefit: - Bit less than Weaponspren tier utility for party in terms of damage. At a respectable 66 Cha and 28 modifier, we are looking at 5+28/5 = 10 damage to party (no self-respecting tank is gonna have that unless rapier wit). ~~Capped out all in xr lvl 80 CHA PDK Rapier Wit paladin would be providing party with ~~5+35/5= 12 dmg, similar to what a Stormlord provides to a party with Weaponspren, but with somewhat better uptime, and instead of feat investment you gotta go all in on CHA to get there. *Edit*: not saying PDKs would actually have even 66 cha, just a demonstration that the numbers don't seem too high. - Situational and conditional critical hit immunity for self, as well as temporary significant DR boost. This would be op in a run with only one type of enemies, but the new runs are so diverse that it isn't. Max 5 PDK levels at most, 30 rounds of this uptime per rest at highest. That didn't seem like too much. - Anti-KD mechanism that is not as reliable as Bards across a run but better in a tight spot, 3 times per day - Fear Immunity to self/others
Thoughts?
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Post by desocupado on May 21, 2020 11:41:58 GMT
Having benefits that don't scale with charisma would be better. This would open it to other classes.
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Post by woqued on May 21, 2020 11:53:03 GMT
Having benefits that don't scale with charisma would be better. This would open it to other classes. Hence the benefits have PDK level +x over only cha modifier bonuses, and every class in the game has decent amount of charisma thanks to +12 and upwards stat scaling, demigod, subrace bonuses etc - as well as crit imm and the DR on Wrath not being tied to Cha. I mean, the prestige class is literally charismatic leader of soldiers. The class is built off charisma by default, even more so than Paladins. Edit: perhaps they could have some Intelligence scaling ability of some sort, to reward clever leadership... Maybe? Though gotta be honest, based on past couple years on world and national stages, intelligence doesn't seem to have much to do with leadership.
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Post by desocupado on May 22, 2020 4:37:14 GMT
There is such a thing as uselessly unnecessarily scaling effects. Such abilities should just have a fixed good duration.
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Post by woqued on May 22, 2020 9:47:18 GMT
Thwre is such a thing as uselessly scaling effects. Such abilities should just have a fixed good duration. I agree, but please elaborate on which one in the proposed suggestion? I think the class should improve based on CHA, but have usable amounts without it. The durations are reasonable, IMO, just improved if you choose to increase the primary stat of the prestige class as a sidestat to STR/DEX. I tried to be wary with the KD immunity - it is the only ability of that kind in the game. The Holy Shield has decent duration even if you don't scale your CHA, thanks to the new introduced PDK lvl + cha mod and duration scaling being multiplied at 41+ and every class getting a reasonable amount of cha on HG to begin with. I like the critique, I would just prefer it being specific.
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Post by desocupado on May 22, 2020 22:06:10 GMT
Well I had my own PDK suggestion on a specific post, but regarding yours, any number that affect usability in a fundamental way (duration being the main culprit) could have either a higher base or a fixed number: Heroic Shield: Increase amount from PDK+1 to PDK+Cha mod/3, increase duration to 15 rounds Rallying Cry: Increases Damage to Character level / 6 (including LL) , stacking with bard song but not with other Rallying Crys. Final Stand: Also makes those people immune to all knockdown effects for 3 rounds. For instance - KD immunity not tied to charisma is a neat feature. Kinda reminds me of a topic "Epics for everyone". Damage would be a carrot for people that could splash fight but don't feel selfish. Heroic shield is mostly a buff to jut rezzed people.
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Post by woqued on Jul 9, 2020 20:32:49 GMT
Fist monk buff ideas: Unarmed base threat range to 19-20x2 [pay out to getting multiple dmg types, but you pay with losing glove slots for this] Keen as property on any gloves Monks wear at monk 30 instead of monk 40 Monk 40 gets you +1 critical multiplier on any monk weapons and Unarmed Strikes
Edit: to stay true to the metatype of "better vs crit immunes" instead of crit stuff they could have pure monks learn punching specific spots so many times they start to hurt more aka infliction of the phys dmg type they are dealing for up to Monk lvl /4 %.
Edit2: instead of above immunity infliction, they should inflict DR drop to that physical type by 1/- per hit, up to Monk lvl /5 capping out at 11 at monk 59 and at monk 40 if not receiving crit benefits this would increase to 1,5/- per lvl/5, ending up at 18/- dr drop for pure monk. I think this would be super cool to bring fist monks back as both utility and to help them penetrate phys DRs when hitting stuff.
Generalist changes: Monks, Rogues, SDs, Assassins, RDDs should qualify for T1 BAB in pre-LLs, call it the great equalizer in this grand epic granting these various classes equal rights instead of having first, second and third tier citizens running amok
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Post by kratlin on Jul 10, 2020 10:04:28 GMT
As a recently returned player this is exciting - one of the really unique things about the server was its quasi classes but most of them just became weaker and weaker over the years to the point where they were barely played by anyone except as a novelty. (I expect there are some exceptions)
Others have a much better insight than me as to what would make them viable again but for my 2 cents I would like to see them given priority in any balance shake up because they are one of the standout features of HG.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jul 10, 2020 15:12:21 GMT
Generalist changes: Monks, Rogues, SDs, Assassins, RDDs should qualify for T1 BAB in pre-LLs, call it the great equalizer in this grand epic granting these various classes equal rights instead of having first, second and third tier citizens running amok.
There was talk of making Tier one a Legendary/Paragon feat awhile back, not sure if it got put on the back burner or was just too hard to implement.
KE.
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Post by pete on Jul 11, 2020 10:59:12 GMT
AAs and Staffmasters are among my favourites to play as I find matching damage types to mobs fun My suggestions for these are based on that playstyle and making these single target glass cannons. 1) More single packet damage, boring and I like this the least but had to be said and easiest to implement. If the issue is other classes are out damaging without the need to learn mob vulnerabilities and change on the fly then elevate these numbers to match the current highest DPS builds. 2) Give the Legendary Archer Bow and Blackstaff a stacking damage bonus to a mob each time they hit that mob. for example, at +1% damage per hit, after 3 hits that mob takes +3% damage from only you. This would reward focusing damage on a single target and make them better for dps vs elites/bosses (this idea is based on Diablo 3s Bane of the Stricken gem and sees a lot of play in that game and numbers exist on what % they consider balanced). 3) Give the Legendary Archer Bow and Blackstaff a stacking damage bonus the longer the character remains attacking. For example, +3% every 3 seconds with this being reset if they stop to move or take another action such as drinking a potion, creating a choice of maintaining high dps or reposition/heal/res (this idea is based on Diablo 3s Taeguk gem). This does seem better for the AA than the Staffmaster though. 4) Give the Legendary Archer Bow and Blackstaff a stacking debuff to the damage they are set to as a percentage of what that mob takes by default. For example, if a mob starts with 30% cold immunity (takes 70%) then each hit gives them a -0.7% cold immunity. Unlike ideas 2 and 3, this would increase party damage. Due to being a percentage of what the mob currently takes it still means these would need to use the relevant type as hitting something with 100% cold immunity would inflict -0% and so couldn't be used to force a given damage type through and as its the base immunity other classes debuffs couldn't be used to create a foothold. Specifically for staffmasters: Give them divine damage. Arcane casters already do divine via meteor and it would give a small boost.
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Post by tomaan on Jul 11, 2020 14:49:18 GMT
AAs and Staffmasters are among my favourites to play as I find matching damage types to mobs fun My suggestions for these are based on that playstyle and making these single target glass cannons. 1) More single packet damage, boring and I like this the least but had to be said and easiest to implement. If the issue is other classes are out damaging without the need to learn mob vulnerabilities and change on the fly then elevate these numbers to match the current highest DPS builds. 2) Give the Legendary Archer Bow and Blackstaff a stacking damage bonus to a mob each time they hit that mob. for example, at +1% damage per hit, after 3 hits that mob takes +3% damage from only you. This would reward focusing damage on a single target and make them better for dps vs elites/bosses (this idea is based on Diablo 3s Bane of the Stricken gem and sees a lot of play in that game and numbers exist on what % they consider balanced). Not sure how hard it would be to implement #2 but big fan of that one. Would also throw in: +1 crit range/multiplier at AA 50 -- more glass cannon +1 attack at highest AB at AA 50 -- even more glass cannon Shield AC = STR (or other) modifier when wearing light armor -- not glass cannon, but would open up more splash and OC/DC build options
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Post by Enius the White on Jul 11, 2020 15:14:48 GMT
* - Herald of Storms - lacks epics bad. They should have access to their Ench/Conj epics and paragons. Agreed. The class is confined to, and specialist in, only 2 schools. They should be offered the dignity of learning the respective epic/paragon spells, instead of slacking on that front. This would increase party utility a bit, beyond the current inflicts/debuffs and dex/st check buff.
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Post by gatsu83ita on Jul 12, 2020 18:31:31 GMT
+1 attack at highest AB at AA 50 -- even more glass cannon They already get +1 Atk using the Legendary Bow Btw big fan of #2! Adding stacking damage vulnerability would be cool (maybe with a cap, and higher cap if pure).
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Post by zentraxius on Aug 19, 2020 20:08:46 GMT
Feel like my opinion may not be as desired here, but classes that basically require you to be pure to achieve the *unique* function of the class, should be a bit more viable in that case. Mainly looking at, from what I've seen, Rogue, Monk, Druid, Barb, Paladin.
Rogue - Perhaps additional sneak attack scaling? An extra 1d6 per 2 LL would help it out a fair bit. Beyond that their main issue seems to be utter lack of options (seems kind of feat starved, low bab, poor saves) perhaps lowering req for sneak imm to 35 rogue levels so they can get slight flexibility, or a divine power/tensers type buff for LL rogues.
Barb just seems squishy without any notable bonuses? It looks like an RDD control can do all the niche things a barb can do, but with better defense (and abysmal AB) eg fear aura, perhaps using part of/their strength modifier towards hp, or saves, or dr, could help out.
Monk - low bab/dmg, QP has a nice niche use but the one use rest + boss imm seems to make it *too* niche to be useful, perhaps add monk level/6 to their BAB and let monks with 40+ base wis ignore crit immunity or something?
Druid - Has nice preLL bonuses in the form of the grove animals, but they don't continue to scale or level post immo so that stops being helpful. They get some fancy summoning stone thing at 25+ but it is actually less useful than the inventory slot it takes, weaker in all areas compared to any 40+ summon and weaker than just about every grove animal you can tame, and worst of all they have a very short duration. I'd suggest animals from grove that continue to grow post immo, and the stone summon being either 24h like a normal summon and semi-decent statwisie (at *least* comparable to basic summon creature IX.. but really for a class secret it should be better) or exceptionally strong and only lasting a short period of time (eg emergency terror). - Also druids that aren't using 1 monk splash are hurting themselves unreasonably badly. So no real pure bonuses actually exist
Paladin - Seems really cool, but other than dispel niche, altogether less viable than cot? Concealment of faith or something, eg use CHA towards AC/AB for control class paladin or something could be neat.
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