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Post by evildeath123 on Mar 8, 2020 8:32:09 GMT
Hi all,
Long time lurking ex-player with an opinion...
Damage spells
Sorcerers (naturally talented casters) should be able to have virtually unlimited slots with higher damage (+ dice) than a wizard, but less chance to hit (-sp/-dc)
Wizards (less talent but work harder at their craft) should have more spells to choose from with less slots and less damage (- dice) than a sorcerer, but more chance to hit (+dc/+sp)
Non damage spells
Wizards should have higher dc/sp from fewer casts with both wizard and sorcerer spells having the same outcome.
General play
A wizard should always be the go to choice to take down the toughest bosses.
A sorcerer should always be the go to choice to take down the toughest spawns/mobs.
A balanced party should always have/need one of each.
Just an opinion from someone who hasn’t logged in for a looooong time!
Flame away!
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Post by desocupado on Mar 8, 2020 8:34:52 GMT
To put it bluntly, bringing them too close together is a wrong goal. If you want to nerf something, remove the automatic channeling for pure sorcerers. In fact, if you nerf slots, channeling would become nearly useless. I'd say The free CL is an overkill and splashing won't be popular in end game areas due enemies higher SR so that carrot isn't an issue.
In fact you could simply move the free automatic channeling to wizards so they'd start more generally better than sorcerers, but these would still have the option to burn slots with manual channeling.
Truth be told the thing that makes managing arcane classes spellbook a nightmare is the evocation spell diversity. Even I managed to pull off a "universal sorcerer build without evocation school" when I ditched it. It worked better before reverse gravity and superior balor nerf tough. The nerf was mostly due karsus I think.
I'm trying to be more constructive so I'll round up ideas that would require less code edition. 1 more feats (reading tomes for example) 2 less spell slot usage (infinite evocation) 3 improved epic spells and atuomatic spells 4 feats that make a few spells infinite (epic spell proficiency) 5 some form of bonus to SP, DC and/or CL 6 move all spell changes from bfm, dsm and pariah to specialist wizards. Including lore damage.
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Post by woqued on Mar 8, 2020 9:11:43 GMT
Well I mean sorcs have a crapton of slots, they would do fine with the amount Pariahs have. But that won't fix wizards. It may not fix wizards, but one aspect to consider is when party wants to rest. As a wizard, you absolutely need to rest more often. You become the one holding up the party or unable to participate. Reducing the slots on sorc has an effect of allowing the wizard to contribute more rather than being told "There's only one or two spawns left"... Sure, I'll stand around for a while watching everyone do the work while I wait till it's time to rest. Sure enough, but if wizards end up doing that then they also run out of slots far before bards, druids and clerics; so the playmaking option here to nerf sorc slots? It doesn't add up. Perhaps wizards just need to catch up to the other casters. Then there's something I used to witness a lot; running out of the two flavour of the month spells and then sitting there feeling awful, when there are Balors alive and they didn't book any Melfs. Mariliths and no Combust, etc but that has to do with wizarding being harder than playing other classes; you need to have more absolute knowhow and keep swapping around various different levels of spells across multiple elements that far surpass the amount of instakill spell swapping we do on Clerics for instance. Then going back to endgame area balance and slotting. Wizards simply have issues fitting in a wide array of spells that are efficient in a couple specific areas; for Limbo that is just flat SP and slots to keep controlling Alienists and other nasties by landing the mord/assay/bb9 combo on a paragon Alienist unassisted. I mean, even Sorcs run out there (aand, in my experience, often before other casters, gee golly i wonder whats up with that. Even with that in mind, I wouldn't mind sorc spell slot nerfs! But again, not the problem). Then there's Abyss. Wizards lack the 9 coverage often; since those areas are very heavy on 9s. But wait, why aren't the other casters running out of spells? Oh, let's nerf the sorcs. That'll fix it! No, sorcs and wizards will just complain together before others. I always had beef with the notion that wizard balance revolves around sorcs alone. Wizards do *feel* lacking even if sorcs are taken out of the equation, and that is what causes the irking response to proposing sorc nerfs *before* proposing wizard buffs when it comes to bringing wizards back. It comes across as completely ass backwards. I'll put it out there once again since this seems to be in your mind. My playing wouldn't be hurt by a sorc slot nerf at all on a personal level. A newer players' sorc playing might. The people who carried my sorry ass in Limbo might. I don't need more slots, I have excess. That is not the problem. The problem is wizarding in general, and the relayed message that bringing the gap between these two classes is more important than the overall resting pace and balance between classes feels weird. I suppose this'll be my last post in the thread since it seems I'm repeating myself perhaps excessively.
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Mar 8, 2020 9:34:28 GMT
One quick point from a long ago player. Wizards are far and away the worst character to reinc. The requirement to get all the spells back into your spellbook is a nasty ugly process (worse if you want them in some sort of order). Whatever you do to fix them, don't rely on the reinc mechanism because its a lot worse for wizards than any other class.
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 8, 2020 10:46:04 GMT
This is an issue that has to be sorted out, since it is very important that we understand each other when responding here. Bottom line is we probably need to reduce sorc's bonus slots. This is the core of the problem, but no one wants to suggest it, likely out of fear of alienating fellow players. Funky Explain to us, how we should understand this any differently, than that you see this as beeing the problem to be fixed here in context with the wizards issues... As far as the responses I have seen and given myself noone said "dont nerf the slots of sorcs", just that it will not solve the issues with wizards. By all means go ahead and reduce the slots, that´s fine, if it really balanaces it a bit more. If you meant it differently then I was not able to see that, not sure about the others, hence the response you got from me at least.
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Post by chainlink on Mar 8, 2020 11:48:21 GMT
As I still play -HC- quite a lot I have to say every time I see a class/build nerf incoming I get a bit less enthusiastic about the game as its potentially 120 million exp I can kiss goodbye to unless I'm willing to softcore any character it might impact then reinc to normal mode.
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Post by AuBricker on Mar 8, 2020 15:33:19 GMT
This is an issue that has to be sorted out, since it is very important that we understand each other when responding here. Bottom line is we probably need to reduce sorc's bonus slots. This is the core of the problem, but no one wants to suggest it, likely out of fear of alienating fellow players. Funky Explain to us, how we should understand this any differently, than that you see this as beeing the problem to be fixed here in context with the wizards issues... As far as the responses I have seen and given myself noone said "dont nerf the slots of sorcs", just that it will not solve the issues with wizards. By all means go ahead and reduce the slots, that´s fine, if it really balanaces it a bit more. If you meant it differently then I was not able to see that, not sure about the others, hence the response you got from me at least. Nerfing Sorcs will not fix anything that might be wrong with Wizards. Rather, repairing Wizards, giving them some skill or benefit unique to that class is a far superior goal I should think. Any number of unique Wizard abilities have been proposed here. I hope we go that route.
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Post by merkley on Dec 9, 2020 16:00:24 GMT
I'd probably phrase it more as "unintended exploit-adjacent feature" rather than "pivot", but wizardthread is a big ol' fish to fry so let's head over if people are feeling the wizbalance itch needing a-scratchin' @chiralty I think this is the thread you were speaking of. Quite a bit to go through haha. @devs Can we allow despecializing in LL until the class can be reworked. Or allow a "no barred school" specialization in LL.
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Post by starcore on Dec 9, 2020 20:32:26 GMT
Since this thread was already necroed, couple of ideas I've had re: wizards
1: Give wizards full cl (without any spec or feat bonuses) on all scrolls (like how the mord scroll currently works) it'd be great utility & save some spell slots without being overpowered, and fits thematically with the wiz being the one carrying a bunch of random reagents and scrolls
2: A special effect on some of the spells for their chosen spec school (This idea was brought up by KE in our discord and got me thinking about some possible effects) These could be reasonably powerful, as each wizard would only get one, with no easy way to switch. Also should probably restricted to wiz CC (not PM's)
Some ideas:
Necro: Small aoe effect on energy drain Abj: Targeted mord works as an AOE (and doesn't strip friendlies) Conj: Summons don't trigger kickback Illu: I don't have any good ideas here Div: PWK gets the single target HD cap when cast as an AoE Trans: Mass haste lasts an extra round
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Post by Talamanthalon on Dec 10, 2020 4:39:29 GMT
Seems like a simple fix, with little coding, to match Sorcerer would be something that gives a chance at "increasing spell slots" (sorcerer innate increase to spell slots) and "increasing chance of a spell landing" (sorcerer channel, which effectively is an increase chance of spell landing).
Increasing spell slots: - If pure and Paragon Spell Focus have a 50% chance of not using a spell of the chosen school.
Increase spell chance of landing: -- Each Paragon Spell Feat allows a 50% chance of rolling the SR & Save Check twice, of that school.
Side Note: - Reincarnation requiring an absolutely nightmarish Arcance Research stone per spell - To fix: Allow some sort of ability to create a stone. Spellcraft "x" + 300mil gp/spell level.
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Post by woqued on Dec 10, 2020 11:21:29 GMT
Seems like a simple fix, with little coding, to match Sorcerer would be something that gives a chance at " increasing spell slots" (sorcerer innate increase to spell slots) and " increasing chance of a spell landing" (sorcerer channel, which effectively is an increase chance of spell landing). Increasing spell slots:- If pure and Paragon Spell Focus have a 50% chance of not using a spell of the chosen school. Increase spell chance of landing:-- Each Paragon Spell Feat allows a 50% chance of double casting the same spell automatically, of that school. Side Note: - Reincarnation requiring an absolutely nightmarish Arcance Research stone per spell - To fix: Allow some sort of ability to create a stone. Spellcraft "x" + 300mil gp/spell level. I really like the chance to not use spell part. The doublecast is pure insanity though. Rolling twice vs SR and/or Save for specialized school would be more in line though and provide unique incentive and be less machinegun casting more befitting a Sorc. Arcane Research: that price is too high, no other class pays billions for reincarnating - no reason for it either.
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Post by Talamanthalon on Dec 11, 2020 20:38:21 GMT
The 50% and cost on Crystals are just arbitrary numbers. They can be adjusted to fit.
Yes the "double casting" was really for the SR/Save checks. Not double damage, double effect, etc. I edited the original post to fix it.
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Post by dagoon on Dec 11, 2020 23:55:34 GMT
Number of slots has nothing to do with why I will always prefer sorc to wizard... give wizards an extra 100 slots per level for me, cool, I’m still playing sorc. What’s my issue with wizards? I despise populating spell books... have multiple clerics (on the same account) for this very reason. Wizards definitely need a lift... one of the notions bandied about that seems to really fit the theme... x% chance to not consume the slot of any spell cast from your specialised school.
Moving the free channeling from pure sorcs to pure wizards would also help towards balance I think, but while spell books have to be manually populated wizard will never be for me personally
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Post by chirality on Dec 12, 2020 1:26:47 GMT
pretty succinct summation of the main issue, altho the # of slots is definitely still a really big consideration (just monumentally dwarfed by the power/funfactor of spontaneous casting, nonetheless) tr
recap of my fave/pet proposals:
- free TA
- free codex
- now-ancient once-approved (i saw it on the spreadsheet years ago!) +1 CL/5 PLs to spec school
- apply lifethreader "% not to use slot" script for spec school in some format
- Delete current version of polymathy (it has always been prone to abuse and doesn't translate into a solid enough perk when working correctly--just being sadly honest) and replace it with: -- the ability to simply cast every non-barred school's paragon spell 1/day, (including by default 2nd cast of specced paragon) -- (partially inspired by Merkley's !despec abuse comments--it's hilarious and true that a wizard still isn't competitive even with loophole enabling double/triple amt of epic/paragons of a sorc) -- this would also help provide a balancing factor for generalist vs. specializing after specialization gets properly buffed to be highly-attractive
- permanent immunity to spec school (perfectly complicating/nuanced buildtheory decision to make things cool, should be even better if spec is really good, new zone drops, maybe new spells, stuff like SS nerf)
- let wizard weapon buffs count as "self-casted by tank" for purpose of determining extra dice (this would be sweet and a nice fitting buff rn)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 21, 2020 20:59:30 GMT
So, there's a lot of inaccurate information in this thread, like characterizing this as a 'wizard problem' when in reality it dates back to the 2008 channeling edit. But, given that we have found a solution likely more palatable to all, I'm going to skip the history lesson and just pass on the game plan.
To bring wizards up to snuff, we will be implementing some back-burner stuff. Specifically five wizard-only spells:
Spell Matrices (Lesser, normal, Greater) - these will each be multispells ala Shades with 5 subspells; you will be able to pre-set combinations of 2, 3, and 4 spells respectively in them, so that when you cast a matrix, all 2, 3, or 4 spells fire in order, at the same time, with one cast action.
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer - recharges spells by consuming others of the same or higher level.
Spell Engine - you select a target type, cast a spell, and create a stationary Spell Engine that hunts for other similar targets and casts the same spell on them autonomously. The spells cast by the engine, at a rate of one per round, do not come out of the wizard's memorized spells. You would select a target type, cast a spell, and create a stationary spell engine that hunts for other similar targets and casts the same spell on them.
Funky
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