Post by woqued on Mar 23, 2020 18:52:42 GMT
Currently heavy armors are very niche and for the most part only for guys with Magic Vestment for shield and very very very low dex and shifters. Dex checks being so prevalent all across the module forces people to build characters with dexterity far beyond what makes for a feasible argument to ever, ever use heavy armours and in most cases even medium armours (excluding OP kickback XR armor, nerf pls to 25% or something). Only a very enticing special can cause someone to wear Heavy - and even then they feel bad about it and have to make significant sacrifices to do so (read: something like +1 spen over any other alternative).
As it stands, the heavier armor types fall off completely off gearing choices for majority of characters (even those that would normally wear them) in the end game - the Paragons, monster design, ac requirements and +12 -> +16 stats have made sure of that. Now since we've made the point several times, onto the idea:
Proposal for a max dex modifier change to align with paragon / subrace powercreeping as follows:
- Heavy armors get their max dex modifier caps raised by +3
- Mediums by 1-2.
- Light armours are fine.
- Robes are fine.
- Tower Shields get their dex modifier cap raised by 3
* current Heavy 8+3 max 11
--> new 8+6 max 14
* vs current Medium 4+10 max 14
--> new 4+12 max 16
* vs 3+19 max 22 - light unchanged.
Or for shields
* Large Shield: 2+18 max 20 but lowered by BAC (but limited by armors, again favouring lighter options - often Large Shield would be used with Light Armour) - unchanged
-->
new Tower Option: from 3+11 to *3+14 max 17 but lowered by BAC (but limited by armors, sucking with all armors really due to how dex modifier and the BAC reduction works and how much dex generally characters end up having on HG) --------> new 3+14 max 17, up to 38 base dex tower would be the go-to choice pretty much. Generally you'd be using a Medium or Heavy armour here with this option, Large+Light would be stronger at 42+ values all the way up til close to 48-52 dex where Small Shield enters chat.
... These differences are too brutal currently to make up for any increased immunities on phys% or elementals currently present on the armours considering the existing inflicting mob types / penalties / high damages in general / exotic / esoteric / elemental types of damage we take. Mob design has put us in this and in my opinion for the better; but it would be better to change the armours rather than go backwards in mob design to accommodate them in their current form; it is nigh impossible especially considering what a large portion of immunity% comes from non-body armor items worn.
This would mean that a 8 bac heavy armor at dex mod 6 would at least compete until around 28 dex~~ in pure AC terms; against current unchanged medium armors... Could even have more tbh, but that would be a good start. Mediums would fall off at 4+12 compared to light bac 3 armors at around 36 dex, which is the base of a no subrace modified maximized PL character with starting dex of 14 who invests 0 to dex with feats or later statpoints. They would still have superior defensive qualities at that point, but light armours would still be superior between the 40-48 margin, and compete with robes thanks to superior immunities in the 48-52 line. After that Robes would again pick up the slack. This seems fair enough.
I don't think it's feasible, but this change could potentially even be implemented upon gaining Immortality to keep things balanced before that; the heavier types fare better in pre-Immo content than after that. Even in 41-60 content with +12 dex and no PLs, medium and light armours for many toons are simply far superior.
Reference calculations: base dex of 8 + doubledemi +4 +paragon +2 +16 from item gets us to 30 base at modifier 10. And absolutely nobody except Pariahs start with base dex 8 or below, because the mod doesn't allow for that and it's just dumb) - everyone goes at least up to 12, usually 14 or above thanks to AC, Reflex and Stat Checks forcing us to make that decision unless we simply like subpar characters, but that shouldn't affect our balance design philosophy much. And this is ignoring any subrace derived dexterity, many subs do after all have dex and for those the disparity grows in a rather unbearable fashion where the old dex modifier caps simply can't keep up and a majority of items in the game are left in the dust.
For reference, even my frontline cleric(soaktank?!) with MV potential and stuff is using Light Armour + Large Shield, because dodgy types are simply that far ahead. Even basic BUR subrace casters with double demi and paragon dex reach dex amounts that make tower shields and heavy armours obsolete for them, without any stat point investment in dex in order to fully maximize DC (ofc they wouldn't use them anyway because their cool specials and slots are elsewhere, but just to make a point about dexterity). Even Pariahs get high enough to warrant using Medium/Large Shields over Heavy/Tower Shields.
-- for sake of argument here I just chose to completely ignore everything splashing monk, that is somewhat irrelevant to this because even without monks the medium/heavy/tower types are lackluster. If I made any mistakes there I apologize, this post was mainly to drive in the point that current situation is completely imbalanced and since we have been in the mood for rebalancing it was a good time as any to bring up. Maybe not the most pressing matter of all, but something to consider when there are requests to develop items - it is pointless to develop somewhat unusable base items.
Edit: my numbers might be off, some tamer or even bigger numbers might be more accurate but even these proposed values at a whopping doubled ac gained from dex mod for a 8 base heavy armor would still make them fall behind for anything above absolute minimum dex for a character in endgame.
Edit2: some fixes, fever post blame stuff things
As it stands, the heavier armor types fall off completely off gearing choices for majority of characters (even those that would normally wear them) in the end game - the Paragons, monster design, ac requirements and +12 -> +16 stats have made sure of that. Now since we've made the point several times, onto the idea:
Proposal for a max dex modifier change to align with paragon / subrace powercreeping as follows:
- Heavy armors get their max dex modifier caps raised by +3
- Mediums by 1-2.
- Light armours are fine.
- Robes are fine.
- Tower Shields get their dex modifier cap raised by 3
* current Heavy 8+3 max 11
--> new 8+6 max 14
* vs current Medium 4+10 max 14
--> new 4+12 max 16
* vs 3+19 max 22 - light unchanged.
Or for shields
* Large Shield: 2+18 max 20 but lowered by BAC (but limited by armors, again favouring lighter options - often Large Shield would be used with Light Armour) - unchanged
-->
new Tower Option: from 3+11 to *3+14 max 17 but lowered by BAC (but limited by armors, sucking with all armors really due to how dex modifier and the BAC reduction works and how much dex generally characters end up having on HG) --------> new 3+14 max 17, up to 38 base dex tower would be the go-to choice pretty much. Generally you'd be using a Medium or Heavy armour here with this option, Large+Light would be stronger at 42+ values all the way up til close to 48-52 dex where Small Shield enters chat.
... These differences are too brutal currently to make up for any increased immunities on phys% or elementals currently present on the armours considering the existing inflicting mob types / penalties / high damages in general / exotic / esoteric / elemental types of damage we take. Mob design has put us in this and in my opinion for the better; but it would be better to change the armours rather than go backwards in mob design to accommodate them in their current form; it is nigh impossible especially considering what a large portion of immunity% comes from non-body armor items worn.
This would mean that a 8 bac heavy armor at dex mod 6 would at least compete until around 28 dex~~ in pure AC terms; against current unchanged medium armors... Could even have more tbh, but that would be a good start. Mediums would fall off at 4+12 compared to light bac 3 armors at around 36 dex, which is the base of a no subrace modified maximized PL character with starting dex of 14 who invests 0 to dex with feats or later statpoints. They would still have superior defensive qualities at that point, but light armours would still be superior between the 40-48 margin, and compete with robes thanks to superior immunities in the 48-52 line. After that Robes would again pick up the slack. This seems fair enough.
I don't think it's feasible, but this change could potentially even be implemented upon gaining Immortality to keep things balanced before that; the heavier types fare better in pre-Immo content than after that. Even in 41-60 content with +12 dex and no PLs, medium and light armours for many toons are simply far superior.
Reference calculations: base dex of 8 + doubledemi +4 +paragon +2 +16 from item gets us to 30 base at modifier 10. And absolutely nobody except Pariahs start with base dex 8 or below, because the mod doesn't allow for that and it's just dumb) - everyone goes at least up to 12, usually 14 or above thanks to AC, Reflex and Stat Checks forcing us to make that decision unless we simply like subpar characters, but that shouldn't affect our balance design philosophy much. And this is ignoring any subrace derived dexterity, many subs do after all have dex and for those the disparity grows in a rather unbearable fashion where the old dex modifier caps simply can't keep up and a majority of items in the game are left in the dust.
For reference, even my frontline cleric(soaktank?!) with MV potential and stuff is using Light Armour + Large Shield, because dodgy types are simply that far ahead. Even basic BUR subrace casters with double demi and paragon dex reach dex amounts that make tower shields and heavy armours obsolete for them, without any stat point investment in dex in order to fully maximize DC (ofc they wouldn't use them anyway because their cool specials and slots are elsewhere, but just to make a point about dexterity). Even Pariahs get high enough to warrant using Medium/Large Shields over Heavy/Tower Shields.
-- for sake of argument here I just chose to completely ignore everything splashing monk, that is somewhat irrelevant to this because even without monks the medium/heavy/tower types are lackluster. If I made any mistakes there I apologize, this post was mainly to drive in the point that current situation is completely imbalanced and since we have been in the mood for rebalancing it was a good time as any to bring up. Maybe not the most pressing matter of all, but something to consider when there are requests to develop items - it is pointless to develop somewhat unusable base items.
Edit: my numbers might be off, some tamer or even bigger numbers might be more accurate but even these proposed values at a whopping doubled ac gained from dex mod for a 8 base heavy armor would still make them fall behind for anything above absolute minimum dex for a character in endgame.
Edit2: some fixes, fever post blame stuff things
