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Post by chirality on Apr 15, 2020 2:40:12 GMT
I see a potential problem that affects both the Scheduled Hell Trains and the people with little time who may want to join them after this change: One of the things Mathes indicated is that people might not have time to come/stay on for a full run. If this means that the hell train call is for a 3-run set (usually done for Tia-Dis-Min and Phleg-Styg-Malb) but the player only has time for 1-2 of the runs, this causes some problems depending on how it's handled (I know how the DTs handle it, but am not sure how Prepared's group does it): Situation #1: Player comes for the first 1-2 runs of a 3-run set: This means that either extra time must be taken mid-run to split for that player, the player must ask someone to pick for them, or the player gets his/her tags, but no loot. Situation #2: Player comes for the last 1-2 runs of a 3-run set: This may mean that the player gets to pick from loot from all 3 runs, or it may mean that (again) they get no loot, or be required to not pick set loot from runs they didn't attend, or may disqualify them from getting loot entirely, depending on the player and the rules set forth by the run leader. It also means that the run team may have to drop a bot from the run, if applicable, or that the player can't join at all if the run really filled. Situation #3: Player comes for the second run of a 3-run set: This has all the problems of both of the above situations, tho with the speed of the runs being done as triples it should be pretty rare. I think these situations may be what's giving gladi8or pause, as they could affect DT runs. Our runs have clear rules, however, in that if you aren't present for 75% of the run you get no loot (so showing up to 1-2 layers in a 3-layer hell run means no loot). I hope this clears up some of the social problems a bit better (these problems already exist, but would be made more common by the changes). -- arekso let me get this straight, you're actually saying that making tagging easier will make run formation harder for you and your guild? so that's why we shouldn't do it?
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Post by horbag on Apr 15, 2020 3:24:17 GMT
don't blame us for actually taking the time to organize, show up and doing the guild runs, if you have a guild you should be able to do just the same thing, besides that is not at all what he said
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 4:02:59 GMT
No one is blaming DTs for running guild runs. This change wouldn't adversely impact the DTs or any other guild for that matter. At all. How the DTs or any other group distributes their loot or the rules they have or make is up to that group. Players can accept it or not. It's really that simple.
The notion that this change would also adversely impact loot is silly too. Players will know the parameters regarding their ability to get loot or not prior to joining a run and then can make a call to join or not. BUT, they will have chances for tags which may or may not have existed previously so all of Arek's points are completely irrelevant as it relates to this change.
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Post by chirality on Apr 15, 2020 4:22:07 GMT
i calls em likes i sees em. there was absolutely zero need to bring up anyhing about guilds or run formation whatsoever in response to anything in this thread
therefore the only explanation i can fathom is that someone is apprehensive about the change due to making their run formations harder--is that or is that not the summation of this completely off-topic intrusion? bringing up how loot is handled and this and that? wtf? it's totally normal in -any- group to have out-of-sync toons that missed runs, esp. p3s or canias or malads or whatever, and end up with that "issue" or "situation" needing to be resolved. nothing about it should "give pause" to anyone.
you know what i think? i think this reads like some very spoiled kids whining about entitlement. i think that a fear of toons missing runs and screwing up the perfect cycle where everyone tags, is based on some pretty unrealistic expectations and precedents, that only exist within a closed-loop echo chamber feedback system.
harsh? eh, well Karen and Chad are triggering, what can i say
guess what, these are things everyone deals with. thread called "please removed the strict order of hell layer tags" and people are acting concerned about the impact? how? ngl i expected some oldskool hardtimes argument but never saw this coming. leave it as it is because changing it will be bad? come on
here, actually let me put it another way,
we'll compromise, it can be a volunteer basis. opt-in if you will. hey no pressure.
so for horbag, the hell tag system can remain the same
the rest of the server can tag out of order
there, compromise, everyone's happy right?
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Post by bloodthirst on Apr 15, 2020 7:45:41 GMT
i do not realy see a benifit to this, all i see are people who want something changed so it is easyer for them cause they are tag greedy, how hard is it just to help others when it's needed?.... sure it can suck if you are out of sync on the hell cycle but is that rely such a big problem ? just wait about a week tops and they have to start from tia again, you know it comes back around soon, there are only 9 layers. Wow, just wow. Ever spare a thought for the folks in quiet time zones? The idea of simply waiting for a week for the run I need to roll around again is just so far removed from the reality of the quiet time zones I'm a bit lost for words. If there is ever a pug run formed in my prime gaming time its a 1 in 9 chance of being the one I need, usually someone needs the tag before it wanting to make it a 2 layer run, I do not have time for that and boom the whole thing is off.
Guess the core of what i am saying is please do not assume everyone has the same opportunities as yourself and to those of us in my situation, being able to do tags out of order will reduce the amount I need to bot in order to get anywhere at all.
Que botting flame war.
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Post by woqued on Apr 15, 2020 11:48:29 GMT
I don't understand. You guys are complaining about things that ALREADY EXIST, as reasons not to advocate for this change that isn't impacted by those things and doesn't even need to be a change - you can play as you always have, go in orderly fashion if that's how you like it. But for those who don't like to do that or just don't have the time and feel frustrated this would open avenues. As bloodthirst noted people already get excessively "forced" into botting and this might alleviate that even if slightly - and this doesn't even affect heavy multiboxers much at all, they would maximize tagging all their toons at once anyway as much as possible, which is another nutcracker.
Seems like anti-change for the sake of keeping the game as it is (which, again, it could be for you if you prefer it that way) - which is fine but call it what it is then.
People chiming on others not helping and then complaining about this is the pinnacle of hypocrisy or ignorance.
Edit:
I thought of a comparison and I am unsure so I'll do it anyway. Do you think Abyss would be better if in order to tag you would have to do it in order of Azzagrat => Zio => Shed => GM => Than? (or some other order, but order nonetheless - and after doing it once, you would now have to do it in another order that ends in another prince). I.e if you haven't done Azz, you wouldn't tag for any other Abyss later, and the next prince win would always be in some such order. Finally you'd end up in Pelor, or Pelor would be the 2nd one or something. Anyway, do you think it would be better? Personally I like the freedom of being able to do runs in a mixmatch format according to what you feel like and what others happen to need at the time.
I'll ignore the lore part about Hells being orderly just for sake of comparison.
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Post by gladi8or on Apr 15, 2020 13:48:53 GMT
Alright, this is the last post I'm going to make in this thread because it has gone in a completely different direction. Way back on the first page Funky said, " I'd like to hear a little more about what effects you would anticipate this change having, both good and bad." Thus, despite there being some benefits to the change, I decided to post my concerns. Maybe they weren't clear because suddenly this turned into a rant about myself and others being selfish and some other less than interesting rants.
I can see some value to this change, if it were made as some of you have already stated. That said, I find that there are other concerns that out weigh the benefits. Those concerns being A) There will still be people needing different tags and not always getting the run they need. Will players get the ones they need more often? Perhaps, but I'm doubtful. B) The skull is great right now because it is a quick way to identify your progress as you move ahead. I don't see a point changing that because it is very effective. Yes, you can make a spreadsheet, but currently there isn't a need. It's also very useful for new players to track their progress. This game is overwhelming when you start as there is a lot to know. The skull alleviates some of that for new players, and us vets too. C) What happens with writs? Again, this is something beneficial to all of us the way it currently stands and, correct me if I'm wrong, but probably instituted to help people who miss a tag they need. Isn't that the core of what we're discussing here? I don't see a need to change it. D) I like the way the game gives you a progression, like most games. Tia through Nessus increases in difficulty. It lines up with the other levels of progression in the game, lvl 1-40, etc. and E) Probably more importantly, we have a great group of Devs here who work hard on their own personal time to deliver content to a game that is, what? 30 years old? Maybe more? Some things are not perfect, but a considerable amount of us have been here a long time and keep coming back. I question whether this tagging system needs to take more of their time when it's not that terrible compared to the Devs current load of content building for new areas, enhancing class systems, etc.
In no way was my post(s) intended to bring in a ton of negativity towards someone's idea. I just don't see it as a "no brainer" because there are other, more pressing issues on this server. I don't know how this thread became a hate filled conquest because there is a difference of opinion. Also, to call me selfish because I have a difference of opinion is ridiculous. Once I was done laughing, I thought about how to perhaps restate my words. I wonder how difficult it will be for newer players to track their progress through the hells if the change is made. I wonder how much more time this will take on the part of Devs. Yup, I'm a dreaded DT that some of you seem to have a massive hate for, for whatever reason. I don't know. Yes, we organize runs and yes, we will probably continue to do the hell runs in order. That's even more to the point that my post was about a more global outlook, as it doesn't outright affect me. I understand that there are fewer players these days and getting the hell tags you need is difficult. As I mentioned, I too have toons that need hell tags that I don't play on guild nights. This isn't a fear of change or the unknown, it's my questioning the need for this change when we have other things that could enhance the game more. I won't list them, because there are other threads for that. This is why I posted, I don't think the change is necessary. My intent was to give a different perspective and I have done so. I wanted to make myself clear before things I said were twisted even further, as I see has been done to other people as well.
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Post by woqued on Apr 15, 2020 14:02:09 GMT
Alright, this is the last post I'm going to make in this thread because it has gone in a completely different direction. Way back on the first page Funky said, " I'd like to hear a little more about what effects you would anticipate this change having, both good and bad." Thus, despite there being some benefits to the change, I decided to post my concerns. Maybe they weren't clear because suddenly this turned into a rant about myself and others being selfish and some other less than interesting rants. I can see some value to this change, if it were made as some of you have already stated. That said, I find that there are other concerns that out weigh the benefits. Those concerns being A) There will still be people needing different tags and not always getting the run they need. Will players get the ones they need more often? Perhaps, but I'm doubtful. B) The skull is great right now because it is a quick way to identify your progress as you move ahead. I don't see a point changing that because it is very effective. Yes, you can make a spreadsheet, but currently there isn't a need. It's also very useful for new players to track their progress. This game is overwhelming when you start as there is a lot to know. The skull alleviates some of that for new players, and us vets too. C) What happens with writs? Again, this is something beneficial to all of us the way it currently stands and, correct me if I'm wrong, but probably instituted to help people who miss a tag they need. Isn't that the core of what we're discussing here? I don't see a need to change it. D) I like the way the game gives you a progression, like most games. Tia through Nessus increases in difficulty. It lines up with the other levels of progression in the game, lvl 1-40, etc. and E) Probably more importantly, we have a great group of Devs here who work hard on their own personal time to deliver content to a game that is, what? 30 years old? Maybe more? Some things are not perfect, but a considerable amount of us have been here a long time and keep coming back. I question whether this tagging system needs to take more of their time when it's not that terrible compared to the Devs current load of content building for new areas, enhancing class systems, etc. In no way was my post(s) intended to bring in a ton of negativity towards someone's idea. I just don't see it as a "no brainer" because there are other, more pressing issues on this server. I don't know how this thread became a hate filled conquest because there is a difference of opinion. Also, to call me selfish because I have a difference of opinion is ridiculous. Once I was done laughing, I thought about how to perhaps restate my words. I wonder how difficult it will be for newer players to track their progress through the hells if the change is made. I wonder how much more time this will take on the part of Devs. Yup, I'm a dreaded DT that some of you seem to have a massive hate for, for whatever reason. I don't know. Yes, we organize runs and yes, we will probably continue to do the hell runs in order. That's even more to the point that my post was about a more global outlook, as it doesn't outright affect me. I understand that there are fewer players these days and getting the hell tags you need is difficult. As I mentioned, I too have toons that need hell tags that I don't play on guild nights. This isn't a fear of change or the unknown, it's my questioning the need for this change when we have other things that could enhance the game more. I won't list them, because there are other threads for that. This is why I posted, I don't think the change is necessary. My intent was to give a different perspective and I have done so. I wanted to make myself clear before things I said were twisted even further, as I see has been done to other people as well. I like the post even though I completely disagree, and that is fine. I don't know where the DT hatred was drawn out of. I don't see any of that in this thread. Any hatred on my part is personal, and not towards you, nor towards any guild!
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Post by somes on Apr 15, 2020 14:02:58 GMT
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Post by desocupado on Apr 15, 2020 15:00:00 GMT
Those concerns being A) There will still be people needing different tags and not always getting the run they need. Will players get the ones they need more often? Perhaps, but I'm doubtful. B) The skull is great right now because it is a quick way to identify your progress as you move ahead. I don't see a point changing that because it is very effective. Yes, you can make a spreadsheet, but currently there isn't a need. It's also very useful for new players to track their progress. This game is overwhelming when you start as there is a lot to know. The skull alleviates some of that for new players, and us vets too. C) What happens with writs? Again, this is something beneficial to all of us the way it currently stands and, correct me if I'm wrong, but probably instituted to help people who miss a tag they need. Isn't that the core of what we're discussing here? I don't see a need to change it. D) I like the way the game gives you a progression, like most games. Tia through Nessus increases in difficulty. It lines up with the other levels of progression in the game, lvl 1-40, etc. and E) Probably more importantly, we have a great group of Devs here who work hard on their own personal time to deliver content to a game that is, what? 30 years old? Maybe more? Some things are not perfect, but a considerable amount of us have been here a long time and keep coming back. I question whether this tagging system needs to take more of their time when it's not that terrible compared to the Devs current load of content building for new areas, enhancing class systems, etc. A) People will get what they need more often, it's absurd to claim anything else. B) No it's not, because it requires you to log in with each character. A spreadsheet is way more time efficient, and given we are using computers it makes sense to use one. The skull can list several layers you need in a message instead of just a single layer. C) It needs to change if the hell tagging system changes. Obviously. D) Then you must hate how the demicount* system works, by giving difficulty outside the layer order. Well I dislike the hell order as if forces me to repeat easy layers many times. E) Such changes seems to be less code intensive than other changes - as it consists of change to the skull basically. I'll analyze it listing any pros and cons I can think: Pros | Cons | * People will want to join more hell runs with each character as tagging is easier. * It'll be easier to form hell runs as people have more "taggers". * People will only similarly restricted in relevant "tag" hell runs when they completed most of a hell cycle, but only the last tag is as restrictive as the current system. * People can participate in a Hell Train even if they miss some layers / one day worth of runs. * Does not impact the formation of ordered hells "trains".
| * People might need to use a bigger spreadsheet to track hell progress. * Requires to recode the skull and writ at very least. * Does not solve all difficulties in forming runs (or the world hunger for that matter). * Might make people less likely to accept running a non tagging hell layer (but they still have many more potentially tagging characters)
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To be honest there might be better solutions than simply removing the order and I've sure I proposed many things to this effect in the past.
Perhaps helpers - people not tagging - could have a 33-100% chance of getting a writ exclusive to that helping character (based on which layer it is).
The writ could then simply progress the skull.
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Post by chirality on Apr 15, 2020 15:07:48 GMT
yeah i still didn't see any response to my suggestion you don't want to tag out of order, you're free to keep tagging like normal, your whole guild can tag in order then there will be no problems right everyone else can tag out of order, but you can keep tagging like always since it's apparently a big problem, let's not get in the way of anyone enjoying the game or anything free to play how you like, i mean you already do unless i'm terribly mistaken? so how about this, you can just pretend the change never happened. pretend you have to go in order. everyone else can tag out of order. there's some super talented roleplayers, authors, and other creative minds here, let's put that imagination to work well gosh durn it, if a guild is so fixated on tagging in order, that they are actually THREATENED?!!? by tagging OUT of ORDER!? well then heaven forbid anyone stand in your way! So that sounds fair right? So in theory, if Guild "Don't F--k With Our Run Formation Apparatus" took a vote and decided that they prefer to tag in order as they always have--there should be no problem for anyone else right? Given that the game is a private server for Guild We Run This, well who are we as outsiders to tell you how to tag your toons! So the rest of the world can tag as they want, you can tag as you want. What's the big deal? Or is it someone being a little bit of a busybody about how other people get tags?
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Post by woqued on Apr 15, 2020 15:13:52 GMT
Ok there's the ... disdain. xD
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2020 15:54:51 GMT
The more I read about this the more I'm against it. The current hell system isn't broken. All you're going to have is a difficult way to manage what hells you need. Right now it works well because your skull tells you what level you need next. It really feels to me we're grasping at straws here: Ok let's do the first cycle in order, then bookend Tia and Nessus afterwards, Toss in a few writs and... What? No, keep it the way it is. Why make things complicated? As I mentioned in my earlier post this is not a fix, there are still going to be individuals who need specific tags outside of what others want or need. You can't avoid this. We are not creating any kind of solution here! I honestly think there are far more important issues for Devs to spend their time on than a system that is fine. And the idea of using 7 writs is awful. I'm sure it would still be one writ per cycle, but if not, talk about a way to ruin the game. It's about progression and it makes sense currently. After contemplating issues related to writs, I'm inclined to agree. This is asking for problems. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2020 16:03:19 GMT
Time benefitsWhat could be helpful in this analysis is dividing the playerpool into three categories and how they would be affected. Hell runs can be split into randomly announced single runs, randomly announced multi-layer runs and Hell trains (runs done in a day or over multiple days) *snip* Helpful breakdown, thanks. What if we were to get rid of writs altogether? I don't see how they fit in an orderless Hells, other than potentially allowing you to skip most of the Hells and still tag, which strikes me as odd at best. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2020 16:05:57 GMT
Thoughts on reducing number of hells cycles needed to five as well? Would you even consider this Funky? Not sure what you mean. If I recall correctly iterations above 5 do nothing, though we track up to 7. Funky
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