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Post by tomaan on Apr 17, 2020 20:35:55 GMT
Can the writs provide a temporary layer penalty reduction? You can only have one writ active at a time, and it should stack with Environmental Adaptivity feats but capped at 4 -- that way it would still benefit toons that have already taken all three feats.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:55:30 GMT
tomaan That is what abyssal prince wins provide. And its permanent.
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Post by chirality on Apr 17, 2020 21:53:13 GMT
what exactly is the threat or danger to just not giving a shit about how other people spend their playtime, what runs they do, what tags they get, and how all of those things compare to you. this crap about writs existing and therefore presenting some critical obstacle to the proposed change is simply that, crap. it's literally the exact same argument as proffered earlier in the thread about why the idea itself is a bad idea--it's dangerous because it threatens the status quo. first, criticism was directed at the notion of tagging out of order, hurting run formation when that ran out of steam, it moved to well the idea itself is fine, but WRITS! will hurt run formation, so we have to do something about it it's literally the same "problem" : people are afraid of losing the support of helpers on runs...which is completely ridiculous this is the same BS that's been passed around year after year, whether it's whining about people playing anon, not shouting runs, guild-only runs, cliquishness, elitism, it's all about people afraid that other people won't help them without any incentive what a disgrace, the level of selfishness in this game never ceases to amaze me certain people will just do whatever it takes to insist on having some form of control over the way other people spend their time and the way other people enjoy games, out of fear of having no one to drag them meanwhile all the people who bust their asses doing the dragging, merely ask for a tiny little concession after 20 years of playing the game, and it's some huge threat to society, all run formation will break down, guilds will fall apart, vets won't help noobs, all the pro boxers will never play shallow hells, oh whatever will we do when the cringey illusion crumbles? i challenge anyone to demonstrate that their argument against this doesn't boil down to a fear of "missing out" on what other people are doing. guess what, if people want to play with you and do helper runs with you, they will. if they don't, they won't. get it? this isn't a job where we have to report to work and put up with people we might not enjoy very much; this is a game where we choose who, how, what, when, and why we have our fun. "afraid of losing out on tag progression if better players are no longer mandated to do runs that you can benefit from? afraid of getting left behind by better players as they speed past you? yeah, wow, what a HUGE CHANGE from now....."
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Post by bloodthirst on Apr 17, 2020 23:44:03 GMT
Not really sure why writs are causing such concern. Have them function as they do now - function off the layer you are doing. If you already have the layer tag of the run wanting to be skipped then you simply waste your writ. You will still have to do at least 5 runs even if you try and writ your way to demi'dom. No different to the present situation. Unless I have missed something? (Not being a smart ares, just wondering if I have missed some aspect of this that makes writs such a potentially big problem).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2020 0:03:17 GMT
Bloodthirst I’ve said the same exact thing. There’s all this focus and emphasis on writs when if you keep them as they are you’re still doing at minimum 5 hell runs. I don’t see the problem at all or the need to remove or adjust any of it.
If someone has a crap ton and they can do that for several cycles? More power to them, they’ve earned it. Again, they’re still stuck doing 5 layers as they can do presently.
Writs don’t let you skip consecutive layers. There is no abuse possible in changing the system if the writ stays as presently constituted.
Chirality’s latest post is on point.
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Post by tomaan on Apr 18, 2020 14:56:59 GMT
tomaan That is what abyssal prince wins provide. And its permanent. I know...that's why I'm suggesting a temporary bonus. Otherwise, it would weaken the value of an abyssal prince win. In addition, it would basically be worthless to anybody with an abyssal prince win, leaving more available for picking or trading to those who don't. I'm also looking at it as a developer: the writ is a game mechanic that speeds up your passage through the hells by temporarily bypassing the strict tagging order. Removing that strict order would also speed up your passage through hells, so the writ is pretty much redundant. Rather than try to make it work in it's current form it might make more sense to re-purpose it altogether, ideally in a way that is consistent with it's original function.
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Post by tomaan on Apr 18, 2020 15:17:06 GMT
Complaining about other people's suggestions and/or calling them selfish for offering them doesn't add anything to the discussion. If you have a case to make about a particular argument then make it - people will either agree or disagree. That said, it looks like it comes down to three main issues: 1) logistics: how does the current system hinder run formation and how would this change help? 2) mechanics: what game mechanics would be impacted by this change and how should they be addressed? 3) gameplay: how does the change impact the challenge/reward of playing HG That doesn't mean these are the only issues or that any one is more/less important than the other - just most posts revolve around those three issues. Probably best to stick with those and avoid questioning people's motives and integrity. EDIT: from the "git off mah lawn" perspective - back in the olden days, you had to do all layers in order. Period. That restriction was lifted in a 2010 update (and yes, I actually took the time to look it up ).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2020 15:34:37 GMT
Prince wins stack up to 5 layer reductions, environmental adaptivity feats allow for another 3, for a total of 8 permanent layer reductions. For your suggestion to have any value, it would need to add up to a stacking 9th layer for the duration the toon is on a server. If that were an option, or keeping them as presently constituted, either way would be meaningful. There really is zero need for writs to change though.
1) The current system doesn't hinder run formation, people are already doing all the runs. This change allows all the people currently helping to now gain more from their help and time. As already stated, this proposed change would allow more people the opportunity to gain from their time spent on HG. There will still be players at times, as current, which need 1 run to finish their cycle and will need help to complete that. More tags = increased interest in helping, but people are already helping, so expect that to go up. 1b) With the conversation revolving around Tia always being required first, and Nessus always being required last, Cania + Nessus double runs will still be a thing.
2a) The skull would have to be reworked, as previously stated. It would track hells like it does the Abyss, showing completed laters, versus just the "next" layer. Players can still use the skull to track all of their progress, they are not forced into a spreadsheet. 2b) Writs can stay exactly as they exist in game currently. This means, players can skip at maximum 4 hell layers, alternating between using a writ and then completing the subsequent layer. Writs, when used, allow you to skip one layer of hell by completing the following run, thus earning two tags. Players do Tia, writ Dis, do Min, writ Phleg, do Stygia, writ Malb, do malad, writ Cania, or writ whatever they want. Players who writ can catch up to groups a layer ahead of them. If players have tons and tons of writs, great, they can use them, as they currently exist and should continue to, unless writs are adjusted per your suggestion with some additions, it would be nice, but the existing item and functionality can be maintained, no need to change it.
3) The challenge doesn't change at all. The reward goes up because players have increased opportunities to tag at any point a run is shouted, whereas now they have a 1/9 chance of the run being called the run they also need. This is significant.
There really are no negatives here beyond people not wanting things to change and / or as previously stated, some fear of missing out or not being included. This change encourages players to do more because they gain more for their contributions.
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Post by magecat on Apr 18, 2020 17:34:52 GMT
You should also point out that the timeframe included a much larger player base which actually had enough people on that there were routinely leftovers from any given pool of applicants.
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Post by arek on Apr 20, 2020 4:38:14 GMT
IMO, the only potential negative impact to run formation is exactly what I stated before - the change would magnify already-existing issues....slightly. Given that the organized run groups already have rules in place to handle these situations, this is likely a non-issue, and the positives here outweigh the negitives. That said, there is a potential issue with out-of-order tagging making things too easy for newer characters. The solution here is that once you have the boss tag for a particular layer, you may always enter the next layer regardless of skull progress and obtain its skull tag (along with the boss tag, if applicable) should you not already have it, with the sole exception that getting the skull tag for Nessus requires that you have all other skull tags, and the possible requirement for all layers beyond Avernus that you have the skull tag for Avernus, tho I don't think that's actually necessary since you still have to run it (it's much more necessary for Nessus, at least conceptually, and possibly coding-wise as well). This would make it so that you have to run the hells in order your first time (iirc you already have to unlock them in order on your first run through, you're not allowed to "help" on a layer that you've never been qualified to enter, for example, at least without a writ). As for writs...Leave 'em alone unless the code relies on tag order somehow (I doubt it). People above have already stated how that should work. -- arek
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 7:26:17 GMT
Out of order tagging being too easy for new toons doesn’t apply, the existing system has been proposed as kept intact for at minimum, the initial Demi cycle to eliminate this concern, possibly as many as two cycles though I don’t think two is necessary.
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Post by magecat on Apr 20, 2020 11:47:40 GMT
Given the penchant for vets to power through material they are already comfortable with, I think that newbies is a spurious argument.
I know that, when I am learning new areas on the server, I am almost always left to my own devices, even when I announce that I am new to the zone. At best, that seems to encourage a certain watchfulness to ensure that I don't get ignored if I fall, and, maybe, warnings about things like mass/(ive) kickback.
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Post by somes on Apr 20, 2020 16:35:04 GMT
I also don't see the need to remove the strict order. Shocking.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 23, 2020 18:57:53 GMT
The solution here is that once you have the boss tag for a particular layer, you may always enter the next layer regardless of skull progress and obtain its skull tag (along with the boss tag, if applicable) should you not already have it, with the sole exception that getting the skull tag for Nessus requires that you have all other skull tags, and the possible requirement for all layers beyond Avernus that you have the skull tag for Avernus, tho I don't think that's actually necessary since you still have to run it (it's much more necessary for Nessus, at least conceptually, and possibly coding-wise as well). This would make it so that you have to run the hells in order your first time (iirc you already have to unlock them in order on your first run through, you're not allowed to "help" on a layer that you've never been qualified to enter, for example, at least without a writ). Regardless of whether or not the 'newbie' issue is an issue or not, this is a nice, simple, and easy to explain implementation. We'll go with it. I'm not persuaded we should keep writs at all, now that we're relaxing tagging. Let's focus future discussion in this thread on that subject. Thanks to all participating, Funky
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 20:42:18 GMT
I have a crap ton of writs, 13 right now to be exact, I never use them. I tag too many toons and play most often with players always multiboxing. That, plus the fact runs = experience and its rare to be able to writ the entire party I use them as trade bait. There are a lot of players whose free time varies drastically from mine, as well as whose ability to get runs for various reasons (timezone, the class they play, where they're at in tagging order, how long they can play, etc.) who benefit highly from writs. Most players also aren't like me sitting on 13 of them. They are most often burned the second they're acquired, or saved for a time of need when they logged in late and the groups going are ahead of where they are at. I think writs serve a purpose for a chunk of the player base and while this change eases everyone's struggles, I still think offering players assistance is a good thing, especially when already existing.
For a player like me, writs mean nothing either way beyond a carrot to trade with.
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