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Post by FunkySwerve on May 27, 2020 2:12:54 GMT
It has come to my attention that, this past weekend, one or more sets of Asmo armor were quicksold. This is unacceptable, and the person who committed this unspeakable heresy must be made to regret this. So, you have forced my hand. Our slated armor edits are going in. I have confirmed the means of making them, we only need the numbers. And thus arose the minor quandry in which I currently find myself. I can't find our slated edits. I know we HAD slated edits. I just can't find them. I have been munging through all our dev docs, and the last 6 page of forum edits, and still they elude me. So far the best I have found is this thread from March, in which woki suggested some edits: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25939/armor-base-balanceAnyone know where our original proposals are, so the dev team can figure out the most appropriate edits in our current circumstances? Failing that, anyone think they have a more balanced proposal? Funky |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 2:31:12 GMT
What exactly do you mean by "quicksold"? I am not sure what that means. Selling in the !bulksell?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 2:48:42 GMT
Bulk sold is my guess.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 27, 2020 2:52:30 GMT
Not really the point, guys.  Let's look past the clickbaity title, hm? Funky |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 3:20:50 GMT
Ok, soooo you are saying since we dont really value the asmo armor... then its time for a change up? I use the armor.... on some toons But I can see that things are in need of changey changey with Mechanus incoming. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 27, 2020 3:33:19 GMT
No. We're making long-slated rebalancing edits to armor and shields. Forget I said anything about asmo armor. I'm not actually upset, or vindictive, or giving much of a darn about any particular armor. Literal much? Funky |
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Post by sabregirl on May 27, 2020 3:39:40 GMT
Even more basically we were just looking at changing the dex cap on some of the armor types, most likely increasing it on plate and tower shields.
-S
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Post by thomascovenant on May 27, 2020 12:10:39 GMT
I have to say i am in confusion and dont understand what you would mean Funky
i dont think i ever bulksell any asmo gears but if one did what this could have to do with the "states edits "
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Post by woqued on May 27, 2020 12:24:28 GMT
Funky made a joke, you guys missed it.
He is looking to find more information on potential base armor / shield balance changes. The most recent one is my post he linked in the OP, but he was looking to see if someone remembered/still had the old DEV slated edits hidden stashed away somewhere or simply remembered their whereabouts, or if all else fails if someone has a better proposal / idea than what I had written down a while back.
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Post by kid on May 27, 2020 15:06:28 GMT
Slightly off topic but when edits are being made I always thought if Bastion of the Fallen at a toggle to allow choice between all 4 armor types keeping the base choices the same like the resistance choice, the skill sets and the added immunities it would get way more use.
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Post by drunkenboastor on May 27, 2020 17:48:57 GMT
In the vestige upgrade document, there is a mention by Funky about a shield nerf. Before that time I do not recall seeing any mention of changes to armor or shields in the last 5 years or so.
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Post by TJ on May 27, 2020 18:01:57 GMT
Here are some notes from my toons, followed by some thoughts... Note: All of these numbers (except conceal) are my toons in their unbuffed state, at the docks, at theoretical L80. Conceal is 30 + (unbuffed hide / 4) percent for toons that rely on Mass Camo, assuming a splashed druid without an ego. For toons that don't rely on mass camo, i used their other source of conceal (disp, empty body, etc). AB/AC have a margin of error of 1. | Class | Armor Type | Shield | AC@80 (Current) | AC@80 (Post-Changes) | Dex (Mod) | Conceal | AB | Avg Phys % Imm | | Fighter (Fighter 28/WM 7/ HS 5) | Heavy | N/A | 115 | 118 | 44 (3) | 63% | 110 | 65% | | CoT (Fighter 6/Monk 4/CoT 30) | Robes | N/A | 130 | 130 | 42 (16) | 55% | 108 | 50% | | Monk (Monk 31/Fighter 4/WM 5) | Robes | N/A | 136 | 136 | 46 (18) | 71% | 108 | 68% | | Rogue (Rogue 35/Fighter 4/Monk 1) | Robes | N/A | 132 | 132 | 48 (19) | 58% | 105 | 50% | | Bard (Bard 39/Paladin 1) | Light | Small (Horrified Silence) | 134 | 134 | 42 (16) | 80% | N/A | 60% | | Druid (Druid 39/Monk 1) | Robes | N/A | 136 | 136 | 34 (12) | 50% | N/A | 45% | | Cleric 1 (Cleric 40) | Heavy (Divine Chorus) | Tower (Earth Ward) | 119 | 122 | 36 (4) | 55% | N/A | 70% | | Cleric 2 (Cleric 40) | Robes | Tower (Earth Ward) | 121 | 121 | 36 (13) | 55% | N/A | 40% | | Sorc (Sorcerer 40) | Robes | Large (Asmo) | 121 | 121 | 38 (14) | 85% | N/A | 50% |
The suggested changes will definitely help toons like my fighter above that wear a heavy plate currently, but it still comes in below both pure clerics and the pure sorcerer, no matter what they are wearing. Every other "front line" tank listed has >=130 AC, and fighters are sitting there down at ~115 with an extra 5-10% conceal. The phys % imms on the fighter are definitely higher, which is why I included it, but I'm terrible at the number crunching for NWN, so I'm not sure if +5% conceal and +10% Phys imms are worth the 15% lower AC on the fighter. Of course there are also things like attacks per round that have to be taken into account as well, but as stated I'm not great at NWN numbers and dont know how exactly to calculate those. This is mostly just food for thought/data from toons I play in end game areas of HG currently. |
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 3:25:10 GMT
The suggested changes will definitely help toons like my fighter above that wear a heavy plate currently, but it still comes in below both pure clerics and the pure sorcerer, no matter what they are wearing. Every other "front line" tank listed has >=130 AC, and fighters are sitting there down at ~115 with an extra 5-10% conceal. The phys % imms on the fighter are definitely higher, which is why I included it, but I'm terrible at the number crunching for NWN, so I'm not sure if +5% conceal and +10% Phys imms are worth the 15% lower AC on the fighter. Of course there are also things like attacks per round that have to be taken into account as well, but as stated I'm not great at NWN numbers and dont know how exactly to calculate those. This is mostly just food for thought/data from toons I play in end game areas of HG currently. This... is sort of a bizarre conclusion to make about Fighters, since it’s comparing apples and oranges. AC is primarily determined by: - Whether you use a shield - Choice of Armor +/- Shield and their respective DEX caps - Whether you have a class AC bonus (eg: Monk, Ranger etc) - Whether Tumble is a class skill (or if you took the enabler feat) or not - Handful of niche things like Magic Vestment, Strongheart use etc -> The highlighted issue is that in the context of the extra stats HG offers (Demi/Paragon/+16s), the current DEX caps for Heavy Armor/Tower Shields are too easily hit which makes them sub-optimal for almost all classes except Shifters (who shift and effectively stop wearing the gear) and Clerics (who can use Magic Vestment to improve the Tower Shield’s normally low AC bonus). The fact that your 2H Fighter in Heavy Armor has less AC than your Cleric, Sorceror and “every other front line tank” has nothing to do with it being a Fighter (or even that it uses Heavy Armor), but is simply because everything you compared it to has either Monk AC or a shield. |
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Post by woqued on May 28, 2020 10:32:54 GMT
The suggested changes will definitely help toons like my fighter above that wear a heavy plate currently, but it still comes in below both pure clerics and the pure sorcerer, no matter what they are wearing. Every other "front line" tank listed has >=130 AC, and fighters are sitting there down at ~115 with an extra 5-10% conceal. The phys % imms on the fighter are definitely higher, which is why I included it, but I'm terrible at the number crunching for NWN, so I'm not sure if +5% conceal and +10% Phys imms are worth the 15% lower AC on the fighter. Of course there are also things like attacks per round that have to be taken into account as well, but as stated I'm not great at NWN numbers and dont know how exactly to calculate those. This is mostly just food for thought/data from toons I play in end game areas of HG currently. This... is sort of a bizarre conclusion to make about Fighters, since it’s comparing apples and oranges. AC is primarily determined by: - Whether you use a shield - Choice of Armor +/- Shield and their respective DEX caps - Whether you have a class AC bonus (eg: Monk, Ranger etc) - Whether Tumble is a class skill (or if you took the enabler feat) or not - Handful of niche things like Magic Vestment, Strongheart use etc -> The highlighted issue is that in the context of the extra stats HG offers (Demi/Paragon/+16s), the current DEX caps for Heavy Armor/Tower Shields are too easily hit which makes them sub-optimal for almost all classes except Shifters (who shift and effectively stop wearing the gear) and Clerics (who can use Magic Vestment to improve the Tower Shield’s normally low AC bonus). The fact that your 2H Fighter in Heavy Armor has less AC than your Cleric, Sorceror and “every other front line tank” has nothing to do with it being a Fighter (or even that it uses Heavy Armor), but is simply because everything you compared it to has either Monk AC or a shield. Although a little derailing the point with the ftr/monks comparison, the sheeted format did solidly drive in the point though. HA landing somewhere around 115 ac - for endgame balance, the +3 will likely have a rather negligible effect for quite a large chunk of builds. It has a bigger impact in pre-70? content, at least for the primary worrying ones in 2h users. What is left to consider is Clerics and the infliction/slag prevention powers of being clad in heavy armours or using tower shields and trying to balance the scales; whether Heavy Armors will still underperform compared to something like medium armor + tower shields with new max dex on Towers also lifted to +14 gives potential to light armor + tower shield options for lesser ac but potentially reaping benefits of tower shields. A big problem with towers and heavy armors against mediums and lights is that on average in current HG heavy armors and towers are just kinda bad as opposed to medium/light options - not even talking about base, just the way the items are. - Asmo shield (large) - Vestige shield (small) - Vestige shield (tower: sucks). - XR items having a scaling that doesn't really benefit Heavy armours that much (think the Soak base medium - has insane base imm, same soak/spellimm scaling as the Heavy alternative does) - only the DR/Immunity items scale and even in those only immunity; you get high enough on Mediums, and the Kickback armor just outshines every Heavy Armor (and well, also other mediums cuz op op item) and their infliction preventation by miles and miles. Why I bring this up is that we don't really have extremely good heavy armours or tower shields in the game so it's hard for us to have a really good estimate on how big of an impact a balance change hitting heavy/tower shields will be in the long run if we get some really attractive set items for those pieces, or if future areas have less relevance on avoidance type defenses as opposed to just having static damage intake from various types requiring wide coverage of high immunities - for example think about Limbo p2 hard mode fight against Ssendam himself; avoidance type tanks almost completely rely on epics to survive, avoidance is not as relevant there due to his gigalazerbeam zapping the entire party. Think if that becomes baseline for a zone or two? Would a heavy user fare any better? I don't think the change would tip the scales much frankly in the current module; but you never know. +3 ac on a frontline sword/board (or stick & shield tank cleric) could be the make or break to enable this type of character to exist again - those AC points between 130 and 142 mean a great deal in endgame - and this would also enable that wild medium + tower shield combination to enter the fray. This is assuming of course that there is a reason to play a sword&board character in the first place over a 2h smash & basher. Tower shields and Heavy armours should have properties like half kb, rare immunities, evasion, some sort of block-copying/simulating mechanic (like evasion, imp evasion, edodge, special uses and so forth). Most current HAs and Towers have inflated elemental immunities that we already can cover to super excessive amounts with lesser armours so they end up falling flat, so just a item design philosophy shift might bring them up again. But again, I don't think the +3 improvement will have a substantial impact in either direction in that conversation - it would just make ac "less completely irrelevant number" when using a heavy armour or tower shield on a character that isn't a cleric with MV. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 28, 2020 15:57:04 GMT
*snip* the current DEX caps for Heavy Armor/Tower Shields are too easily hit which makes them sub-optimal for almost all classes except Shifters (who shift and effectively stop wearing the gear) and Clerics (who can use Magic Vestment to improve the Tower Shield’s normally low AC bonus). This is the reason for the edit. Those caps were set a loooong time ago. Funky |
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Let's look past the clickbaity title, hm? 
