Missing abyss wand

[tritone]

We did a Gaping Maw with princefight today, finished around 6 EST june 7. on server 214.

My toon ("Troldmanden Tritone", on account "maltelau") was part of the whole run, attuned to both portals, has not defeated any princes before, but did not get the wand from the fight.

As far as I understood, he should have gotten it.

Brad Meister was in the party and can attest, but said I should ask here -- is this something I can get dm help with?

Thanks,

[dopplegang]

I thought I heard a conversation once where I was told that if you didn't need the prince tag, that you would not get a wand from a prince fight you were present for. I could have misunderstood it though, and if true that does have a feeling of unfairness to it. Does anyone else have any actual reliable information about this?

[elgrathforestwalke]

I found this under Mod Update 2016-03-17....

Maybe this is why no wand.

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24638/update-2016-03-17

- It is now only necessary for one person in the party to have wand fragments to initiate a fight against the Prince of Demons or to defend Pelor. In addition, players who have already received a reward for a particular scenario (each Prince, plus Pelor) will not lose their fragments or attunements for participating in the scenario (however, they will also not receive the rewards for that scenario, and cannot initiate it).

Someone may have a better answer.

[Deleted]

Tritone has not received any reward yet (He hasn't killed any princes / Pelor) and should receive a wand as a result.

Helpers wand if they haven't yet done the Prince they're helping kill. Once you've killed a given Demon Lord as Prince, you will not wand when participating on future Prince fights for that Demon Lord.

[dopplegang]

yeah I found this conversation mentioning the same, so my memory was not exact for that, if you did the prince already, you will not wand if you kill that boss again as prince. but you will wand if you never killed that boss as prince previously.

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25410/gm-wand-after-doing-1

You do not receive a wand from a prince fight if you already have the tag for defeating him as a prince of demons.

so this scenario is different, and he probably should have received the wand

so to quote and cut out the non relevant parts:

" players who have already received a reward for a particular scenario (each Prince, plus Pelor) will also not receive the rewards for that scenario, and cannot initiate it).
"
I don't see how this really applies, since he has never done a prince previously. Assuming he really attuned throughout the run I can't see why he did not receive the wand.

[chirality]

Jun 7, 2020 23:52:01 GMT @prepared said:

Helpers wand if they haven't yet done the Prince they're helping kill.

this is not true in my recent experience. i did not get any wands as a helper on the last several prince runs i can remember participating in, even when tagging from p1+ and attuning to both portals.

then again the abyss/prince tagging system has always been finicky, unintuitive, and prone to bugs. the afore-linked thread was never officially commented on, the OP never followed up on it, and it's hard to tell what's a bug and what's a feature.

that said, if you ask me, it's a feature that you don't wand fragment for helping a prince, even if you tagged 1-2. you wand when you kill a demon lord that holds the wand fragment. aside from the fact that it would be nice, i don't see any logic in getting a wand fragment after killing the Prince of Demons that you just gave the fully-assembled Wand to. It's not as if in his death throes he morphs back into his weaker demonlord version holding his own wand fragment that the prince-tagging partymbembers already took from him back when he was a demon lord when they killed him for their wand fragment. You a get wand fragment from killing the p3 demon lord that holds the wand fragment. By definition a Prince fight is initiated after the p3 boss has become the Prince of Demons (by wielding the fully-assembled Wand). Going on a Prince helper run, even if you have tagged up the layers, shouldn't replace the standard p1-p3(normal bossfight) run that is required to get a wand.

[dopplegang]

"prince-tagging partymbembers already took from him back when he was a demon lord when they killed him for their wand fragment."

This is incorrect. The party brings 4 fragments, the demon lord has the other fragment for the full wand. However this is not really important.

" You a get wand fragment from killing the p3 demon lord that holds the wand fragment. By definition a Prince fight is initiated after the p3 boss has become the Prince of Demons (by wielding the fully-assembled Wand)"

Yes, the wand is assembled, and prince is killed with the fully assembled wand. That makes sense, but then you break the wand give it back to all 5 demon lords and do it all over again which is completely senseless from an immersive world perspective but necessary for a persistent world. but helpers cant take a piece on the way out the door? It seems that at some point we could suspend the immersion slightly and reward a player for hard work?

[chirality]

the immersion you're seeking isn't broken because every time you kill a Prince it's essentially re-setting the instance or world. I mean you can't honestly find it immersive to imagine that endlessly cycling the same deity-tier creatures that are unique in the multiverse and follow a finite shared storyline is literally you killing them over and over again within the same universe or "world"? i don't understand why you would think that when you kill a prince the players have anything to do with "returning" the wand fragments to the demon lords. the entire game is literally an exercise in breaking immersion...what's next, pelor fight should give wand fragment too? i mean why not, pelor is breaking the wand into the same 5 pieces again right, to re-distribute to the demon lord owners, why wouldn't he just give a piece to a player needing it on their way out the door?

the endless defaulting to "you're a stick in the mud, let players be rewarded, why are you against it" gets real old. if i had instead responded with

"every time i help a prince i get a wand, so obviously it's player error, maybe stop rushing through runs so fast, especially with newer players, always double-check your attunement and tags at every step"

then i would have been told i was trolling and making assumptions and etc etc. i tried to politely indicate above that this thread was useless just like the last one that never had a DM or Funky comment one way or the other. lol same thread from years ago, come on.

as for the actual principle of prince helpers getting a wand fragment, how exactly does that help anyone? for whom exactly does it reduce work? so now the helper who missed the prince tag is wanded to that layer and can only participate as a helper for that layer, meanwhile the rest of the party has to do the entire layer again...whereas if the helper doesn't get a wand, they still have to do a p3 again, thereby incentivizing them to participate as a helper with for p1-p2. i didn't complain about not getting wands on helper princes because after thinking about it for a sec, I realized that it doesn't actually save anyone time or effort in the long run since it still results in the helper de-synced from the taggers. all you want is the ability to wand a layer as a prince helper, 2 birds with 1 stone, which is fine but why is it even a big deal? considering that you only have to do a p3, while already attuned btw (and anyone struggling on a non-prince p3 at this point in the game needs to seriously question what they're doing playing this game still). maybe if people weren't only incentivized to play a run for the singular reward of the consumable wand, there'd be more tags to go around for everyone, and people wouldn't feel so miffed about "losing" potential tags. you know, if the run isn't worth doing the first time except for the tag, and isn't worth repeating except for the wand, something's broken, improve the loot, make it more fun, i dunno. or is it the time? i know, grownups kids jobs, an extra hour is an extra hour, i get it. again though, obviously the rewards and carrots here are completely out of wack if the idea of doing an "extra" p3 is literally viewed as not worth it. like if that doesn't say the system is broken, i don't know what else does. imagine if nessus loot and xp was so bad that people whined about having to do nessus...

[Deleted]

Tritone, does your skull show you have the other 4 wands? Perhaps you missed attuning on a previous abyss layer. Or perhaps you weren't Prince-ing on that toon. It's a little unclear. Perhaps post you skull progress screenie. 

[tritone]

Jun 8, 2020 15:43:38 GMT @rockmonsta said:

Tritone, does your skull show you have the other 4 wands? Perhaps you missed attuning on a previous abyss layer. Or perhaps you weren't Prince-ing on that toon. It's a little unclear. Perhaps post you skull progress screenie. 

Thanks for engaging with my question. I did get the portal attunements.

Sorry for the confusion: it was a prince fight (others got vestige), but my toon only had one wand beforehand.

The impression I got from the group at the time was that a) toons that had previously defeated that lord as prince would not get a wand piece from a prince fight, but that b) toons that have not previously defeated that lord as a prince would still get a wand piece.

I do have the demogorgon tag now (!list acc), but I don't remember if I already had that from before a reincarnation.

When I checked after the run, I had second portal in GM, second portal in Shed, and one wand (Juiblex). Since then, I've completed Azz1-3 and Than1-3 and got tags and wand pieces without issues.

Now it looks like this:

My !list acc looks like this:

[dagoon]

I was in the same situation as Tritone, although I got my wand fragment (same party, same kill)

[FunkySwerve]

I'm at work and cannot check the module, but I can't imagine we would have coded handing out fragments for a Prince kill. Doesn't follow at all.

Funky

[simpetar]

Jun 8, 2020 21:07:49 GMT FunkySwerve said:

I'm at work and cannot check the module, but I can't imagine we would have coded handing out fragments for a Prince kill. Doesn't follow at all.

Funky

Slightly confused. It may be unintentional, but what tritone is describing here is accurate and has been working that way for years:

Jun 8, 2020 16:21:27 GMT tritone said:

The impression I got from the group at the time was that a) toons that had previously defeated that lord as prince would not get a wand piece from a prince fight, but that b) toons that have not previously defeated that lord as a prince would still get a wand piece.

[Deleted]

As previously stated by several, the following are true and have been for years:

1) You are participating as a helper. You have never killed the given boss as a Demon Lord or Prince. You receive a wand and the tag.

2) You are participating as a helper. You have previously killed the given boss as a Demon Lord or Prince. You do not receive the wand and have previously acquired the tag.

3) You are tagging for the given Prince. You have 4-5 wands as appropriate in your possession. You receive a vestige and all progress and attunement is reset.

[chirality]

this is effectively the same as arguing that taggers should be able to skip the normal p3 and go straight to a prince fight once they have 3 wands

if killing the prince should retroactively produce a wand fragment and tag for a helper, then why shouldn't the party just retroactively get the wand fragment and tag from the prince that the p3 would have otherwise dropped?

i know what's been true for years: you have to do a p3, then you have to do a prince.

if this logic follows, then what does the helper get out of pelor fight? roll d4 for a random wand fragment? speaking of which, this reminds me of ppl claiming you get the ely tag for helping pelor prince. uh...what? who even came up with that?

you know how there's 2 different tags? One for killing a demon lord and another for killing them (as the prince of demons)? yeah... So the prince-tagging party killed the the prince of demons, and got the tag for the prince of demons, the helper killed the prince of demons and got the tag for the demon lord?

as a guy in a movie once said: "it's like two plus two equals...fish!"

no, i mean, i totally get it...sure, the prince is just the demon lord but harder, so why not? but you're saying funky actually wrote a piece of code that tells the game to assign a tag out of thin air? ehhh...i'm not saying it's inconceivable, but it doesn't really grip the imagination.

but i'm sure i'm wrong and being unreasonable about all this, my bad