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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 15:59:14 GMT
1) Biorejuvenators, Asmo rod, Fine print etc to not reset epics/paragon spells on use
2) Add the immute CD to all other epics as well like Lura Phane, Miracle, Erad etc. Spamming them is a little bit too strong of a tool - especially since post-nerfs Immute is not as strong of an ability as many other epic spells. The whole conservation of abilities and clever use, planning etc becomes irrelevant. If limbo pt2hard fight is too hard without tools like this, perhaps nerf it slightly to make up for it. I thought the epic cd had been implemented on Phane as well as it is (imo) even stronger than Immute post-nerfs, but alas.
3) Divine Fervor currently casts Divine Power to everyone in party granting everyone 2 attacks and not the documented 1 attack to others and an extra +1 on the caster itself - this does not seem to be intended, if it is deemed ok then the documentation should match it, if it is not intended as it is quite strong if rod/bio spammed then perhaps a change is in order.
4) Nerf Erad, too stupid "i don't want to deal with things, erad + rod/bio + erad and no problem didn't need to play the game anyways" makes no sense - - *if the earlier 1) and 2) are not feasible, then I'd say to completely rework Erad into something else - such as casting True Rez on whole party + pulling everyone from Limbo akin to WC epic, or granting everyone true immunity to Negative damage for a time, or casting Greater Ruin on everything every 3 rounds for 12 rounds.... Literally anything else. Yes, I'm biased and have hated the ability for the longest time and I super approve it being used on Chaos Rocs cuz I hate them, but I still advocate this change.
Potential problematic fights post-change: Pelor fight, where time is the primary difficulty - problem is, use of bios and asmo rods trivializes that fight currently so it is not so much a problem that rises as it is a problem that is fixed. Potential problematic runs post-change: Limbo pt2 and Limbo pt2 hard - these runs can be very hard on your ring rests. If such a change were to be implemented, the second pedestal should refill resting rings fully, not just to 6 charges. Potential problematic item post-change: Asmodeus Ruby Rod - this item could have a minor buff to help it out afterwards if epic spam is the only reason to use it as is.
Bios, rods etc would still serve their purpose as refilling class features, spellbooks etc. They're too good zergfuel tools as it is currently - whether it be in-combat tools like Rejuvenation Field, Phane etc as well as party buffers like Ottos Field, Divine Fervor etc which receive hopefully unintended uptimes/resets via popping candy and rebuffing them.
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 17:03:47 GMT
Follow up:
Key thing about this is for future areas - it will be incredibly hard to come up with a balance mechanic that doesn't either
A) Require epic resets for reasonable completion times B) Not completely trivialized by epic resets
^That balance is currently skewed and for future content will be even more so I believe if changes aren't made. The power of epics also makes casters disproportionally strong or weak compared to classes without them, the lack of cooldowns and reset-spammability further exacerbates this issue (see Heralds, 20/20 Pariahs, LT's with/without epics for instance compared to counterparts - it's not even a competition). Epics deserve to be that powerful if they aren't readily recastable. Currently I would say spell casting is disproportionally weak compared to Epics - this is obvious from the prevalent Herald/Bard/Cleric/Pariah builds, but that is a topic for another thread (Bard spell power in particular, could use a big thread of its own).
Biorejuvenators taking a hit as a readily available currency for players to have tradebait for the wealthier players who do not run Thids/Stygia as much as they use bios - this would probably be the biggest net negative effect if such changes were to be implemented, as wealthier players would no longer place as high value on Bios.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 17:30:31 GMT
1) Completely disagree with this idea. 2) Love this idea and believe this is slated. 3) Your description of its abilities is correct, and if it is tied to your suggested 2), then leave as is. 4) Give Eradicate 2) and you're set.
I agree with your A) and B). And your 2) addresses all of this in my opinion.
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Post by simpetar on Jul 5, 2020 17:46:23 GMT
Totally agree. I don't like Erad either and think that it is bad enough that there are situations that almost require its use, let alone spamming thereof. (I know this isn't gonna give me any karma points, but Funky, you have been hearing us whine about Rocs from stereo for the last half year at least ) Suggestion how to tackle it: Erad when cast, strips the non-boss target off crit (including dev crit), death, implosion, disintegrate/detonate immunity, immunity to mind spells and all specific mind effects EXCEPT domination (for obvious reasons) for 10 rounds. In other words, the target can be instakilled in many ways for a minute, but you still need to beat its SR, conceal, saves etc., i.e. make some effort. If you don't succeed within a minute, you suck the spell is wasted. Just to avoid any confusion, Dominate immunity is exempt from the list to avoid the obvious combo of Erad -> Conversion, for a super OP pet.
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 18:19:31 GMT
1) Completely disagree with this idea. Why? You don't think they're too strong?
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Post by desocupado on Jul 5, 2020 18:28:13 GMT
Where's karsus?
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 18:44:46 GMT
It's in there unmentioned but not forgotten, just not specified for a few reasons. Karsus has a few problems: first, you need evocation for it which doesn't shine very much in Limbo, so in current metagame it receives less attention (this is a big one admittedly). Secondly, it doesn't have an immediate effect, and only amplifies your other actions. If you die, get CC'd during it, or don't penetrate SR / evasion mob saves or use wrong spell against your targets, it is wasted or it only affects some portion of a spawn. Thirdly, XR weapons leveled the playing field a lot even in a world with Karsus - the deserved destruction of RG/Flensing made Karsus far less overpowered (though still ridiculous when you compare a Karsus caster with a Herald for instance). Requiring elemental damage, instakills or CC/Support spells makes Karsus much less zomg unfair. Comparing Karsus which in general only affects a single spawn with something like Divine Fervor becomes iffy, when Fervor speeds up multiple spawns where Karsus would only speed up one, and all your eggs aren't in one basket (one character). Karsus does admittedly make some bossfights a bit of a snoozefest, but so do so many other things. That being said, I agree Karsus also needs to be considered in this context same as the rest of the Epics/Paragons - and is also one thing that could be problematic in Mechanus if it is intended to be more casterfriendly than Limbo is, and suppose elemental damage spells are back in business against monsters with less than 90++ SR then Karsus will also become the number 1 cry-about-this epic spell. Consider: vs 0 concealment mob (where Orb spells would shine) a melee 2hander guy with a fully buffed XR weapon can do almost as much damage in a round as a Orb caster would during karsus. Vs crittables as something like 28ftr/5harper/7wm maybe even surpass, and it's consistent damage unlike Karsus. Food for thought. FWIW: I think caster/tank power is actually fairly level atm but runs aren't, and casters without epics like castershifters (admittedly to several nerfs like azer underwater, poison nerfs, limbo anti-shifter mobs), heralds etc have fallen off the boat if they ever were on it. Looking forward to future runs and class changes to see how the tables turn.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 19:10:39 GMT
I think implementing the CD mechanic addresses the issue. Unrestrained epic use is the issue. I like FP, Rod, and bio / half. I think all 3 belong on different tiers of "use restoration". I think by controlling how often they can be used, the availability of the player to cast them becomes irrelevant. I think it's easy to say its overtuned, too powerful and all the things when content is and has been on farm, and when the players themselves are way overleveled for the content. Limit the use via CDs, let the new areas come, reevaluate if there is an issue.
You have a lot of new players getting their feet wet into Limbo for the very first time and these adjustments, while needed will hamper their ability to learn, and it was a reality a lot of us were able to leverage in our learning and getting us to a point where this is all on farm. The weapons we use, the levels and abilities we have place us well beyond the power of the runs we are doing. It doesn't mean they're too powerful, it means the content we are doing is below our level and blowing it too far in the other direction isn't the solution.
Place the time limits on it, let content be released, and evaluate as we go.
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 19:47:59 GMT
I think implementing the CD mechanic addresses the issue. Unrestrained epic use is the issue. I like FP, Rod, and bio / half. I think all 3 belong on different tiers of "use restoration". I think by controlling how often they can be used, the availability of the player to cast them becomes irrelevant. I think it's easy to say its overtuned, too powerful and all the things when content is and has been on farm, and when the players themselves are way overleveled for the content. Limit the use via CDs, let the new areas come, reevaluate if there is an issue. You have a lot of new players getting their feet wet into Limbo for the very first time and these adjustments, while needed will hamper their ability to learn, and it was a reality a lot of us were able to leverage in our learning and getting us to a point where this is all on farm. The weapons we use, the levels and abilities we have place us well beyond the power of the runs we are doing. It doesn't mean they're too powerful, it means the content we are doing is below our level and blowing it too far in the other direction isn't the solution. Place the time limits on it, let content be released, and evaluate as we go. CD works, but it's tough to gauge what would be a fitting lockout. I think PPD should always reset any CD, but Bio/Print/Rod shouldn't and the CD should be long and if recharges charges should never reset the CD. I think it's too much that you can use epics willinilly and then when panic happens due overextertion you can just press a two buttons and go again almost instantly and riskless, I think it's too much power and allows too much circumvention of ingame mechanics via epics. Big offender here would be bards and possums, but also clerics and miracles. I agree the game limbo and otherwise shouldn't be made too hard for players new and old, but I think excessive reliance on epics hampers learning and ends up being harmful when you can just press the "oops don't want to be in trouble no mo" buttons and get out of trouble they got in for bad resouce management and carelessness. A small CD like the one on Immute won't remove this and feels like a key part of the game. To counter this "loss of power" some other things could very well be buffed and end up vastly for the better when it comes to across the board balance and class power comparisons, but this has a risk of getting too big of a overhaul to think about. Multiboxing also makes this problem worse when players have an unfairly effective way of amassing resources like money and bios (and money can be converted directly into bios) and utilize things like somewhat unplayed buffbots with super capacity for epic/paragon spell upkeep (so things like fine print/asmo rod don't have their usual equipment cost to use either that a soloboxed player character would pay for this joy), but not gonna go down the multiboxing rabbithole further as that is not within the scope of this thread.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 20:04:29 GMT
1) Biorejuvenators, Asmo rod, Fine print etc to not reset epics/paragon spells on use Interesting idea. Will definitely consider it. Is possibly less limiting than the cooldown approach, and may more directly address the problem. We have CDs and other edits slated for many Paragon spells. The spammability of many of them is quite problematic. I've been talking with the team about ways to deal with the divine power problem. We have a solution going in with Mechanus. It's one of the cooldown candidates, yes. Beyond that, I don't see a problem. It's doing what we anticipated, just too often, which has the effects you list. Agreed. Not likely. Also not likely. Would likely just extend the period it can be used in, if we edit it. Yup, they were not intended to be spammed with such frequency. Any edits like this will be going in with Mechanus, not before. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:09:53 GMT
Are players actively blowing bios for farm contet? I can say for my group we never bio, ever, on any runs. To me bios should only be required when learning a run and that is how we have used them. Once it is on farm it needs to be done at a level where they're never needed. Thankfully we are at that point with my group. Besides the point, just curious.
I think the CD varies per the ability. For me? Miracle shouldn't have CD for the healing / health, but the scatter and disorient should be. If you pop it too soon its just temp HP. I agree with you that Lure Phane is much stronger than Immute. I think you start with Immute's CD which I believe is two minutes and call it good.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 20:14:32 GMT
CD works, but it's tough to gauge what would be a fitting lockout. Yup. That's why I think they might be less limiting than the cooldowns. Actually, I'm contemplating hard cooldowns that only terminate at the end. Idea being that you would actually use them more judiciously, to deal with uniquely problematic situations. If we permit resting to reset them, I would very likely implement your #1 proposal, with some tweaks. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:21:50 GMT
So, is what you're talking Funky changing epics / paragon spells to be one use per run? Period?
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Post by Paradoom on Jul 5, 2020 20:24:00 GMT
Reading this I must say wow, what a terrible idea alltoghter. I mean finetweaking the epics and putting in some cooldowns I do agree apon and making them more tactical to use. But the rest? Runs are already taking long and achieving anything with that much content takes years, even with the powercreep from paragons etc. And now here we go with suggestions making runs harder and taking again much longer? Really bad direction to go.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:27:54 GMT
If your issue is around bios and half bios, let those not refill epics / paragons. Fine print is one use, per server reset. That should remain untouched. Asmo rod should do the same. Some of this, like Doom has mentioned is taking these ideas too far. I am in COMPLETE agreement with you guys that epics and paragons need work. Agree. Firmly. Bios / half bios are a separate piece from Fine Print and Asmo Rod given the limitations around these.
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