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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:17:49 GMT
Reading this I must say wow, what a terrible idea alltoghter. I mean finetweaking the epics and putting in some cooldowns I do agree apon and making them more tactical to use. Then it's not a terrible idea altogether, is it? Any argument based on the premise that anything increasing runtimes is automatically bad, is seriously flawed, and will not get any traction with the dev team. It's akin to saying 'you should always only make things easier', which basically tosses aside the concept of balancing altogether. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:19:42 GMT
If your issue is around bios and half bios, let those not refill epics / paragons. Fine print is one use, per server reset. That should remain untouched. Asmo rod should do the same. Some of this, like Doom has mentioned is taking these ideas too far. I am in COMPLETE agreement with you guys that epics and paragons need work. Agree. Firmly. Bios / half bios are a separate piece from Fine Print and Asmo Rod given the limitations around these. I think the OP was pretty clear about what his actual issue is. You might want to reread the OP, because I and everyone I've discussed it with on the dev team so far agree with him. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:21:09 GMT
Fine print is one use, per server reset. That should remain untouched. Except you can stock up on those, come on. And you do only 1 limbo per reset as well. Bingo. This would likely get edited if we went with the bio edit instead of the CD method. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:24:39 GMT
Paradoom - yeah, my plan wasn't to make Limbo or other zones more sloggy in any way, it's more to prevent epic abuse and to make sure Mechanus is balanced so that we aren't driven to an entirely epic-reliant way to play the game. Instead have the monsters be manageable with smart use of tools our characters have outside epics as much as possible. It will be hard for them to provide an interesting challenge with the way epics, paragons, asmorod/prints/bios are currently without forcing us into them HARD. I like using epics and really love spamming miracles on my cleric, but I don't think it's a good thing for the game. Epics could also potentially be (even) more powerful if they need to be used more sparingly, for future future runs. I'd nerf Limbopt2 further still despite the various changes they've made to help underused classes like Zens and PMs to perform better there for what it's worth. This. Also the reason why these edits aren't dropping until Mechanus does. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:29:11 GMT
Three groups run Limbo. My group isn't using consumables at all, Fine Prints on VERY rare occasions. No Asmo rods. The DTs from conversations I have had with some of them aren't using them. Are the UTs doing all of this consumable abuse and have this epic dependence? I mean, I 100% agree that an adjustment needs to be made on some of these things. But, whose actually doing what is being described? You're confusing the issue, despite the OP having restated it several times. Starting to look like straw-manning. The root issue is not consumable use, but too-frequent uses of epics. OP proposed limiting recovery of these epics by consumables et al as a potential solution to that problem. Funky
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Post by TJ on Jul 5, 2020 22:31:59 GMT
This. Also the reason why these edits aren't dropping until Mechanus does. Funky I don't think timing was ever mentioned, unless I missed something somewhere. To me this post just reads as "we should kill eradicate, add cooldowns to all mob-affecting epics, and make bios/FP/RR not restore any epics, including defensive ones like Dirge and UUU as soon as the dev team has the zots." Nothing about doing it after mechanus to account for possible mechanus power creep, and nothing about any sort of phased approach. Given that these changes would likely be fairly low-zot when compared to an entirely new run, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have a visceral negative reaction to massive nerfs coming before new runs do when Limbo and even Abyss are already unapproachable to many/most groups of players.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:34:54 GMT
Three groups run Limbo. My group isn't using consumables at all, Fine Prints on VERY rare occasions. No Asmo rods. The DTs from conversations I have had with some of them aren't using them. Are the UTs doing all of this consumable abuse and have this epic dependence? I mean, I 100% agree that an adjustment needs to be made on some of these things. But, whose actually doing what is being described? What is it that you think is being described, and by whom? You've already agreed that there's a problem with the frequency of epic/pspell use. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:37:20 GMT
No one has debated the need for the change. We all have interest in what that reality looks like. Not sure what your comment had to do with anything except attempt to invalidate the audience. I read it as him calling out you and others attempting to shift the issue from over use of spells to usables. Funky
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 22:40:41 GMT
This. Also the reason why these edits aren't dropping until Mechanus does. Funky I don't think timing was ever mentioned, unless I missed something somewhere. To me this post just reads as "we should kill eradicate, add cooldowns to all mob-affecting epics, and make bios/FP/RR not restore any epics, including defensive ones like Dirge and UUU as soon as the dev team has the zots." Nothing about doing it after mechanus to account for possible mechanus power creep, and nothing about any sort of phased approach. Given that these changes would likely be fairly low-zot when compared to an entirely new run, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have a visceral negative reaction to massive nerfs coming before new runs do when Limbo and even Abyss are already unapproachable to many/most groups of players. So... Should I quote the three separate posts of mine where i explicitly mention Mechanus and clarified to be abundantly clear that especially for future runs this could be a problem, or the Funkys post where he says none of the edits would come until Mechanus? I'm starting to feel like you are out to get me instead of focusing on the point being discussed here.
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Post by TJ on Jul 5, 2020 22:44:21 GMT
I don't think timing was ever mentioned, unless I missed something somewhere. To me this post just reads as "we should kill eradicate, add cooldowns to all mob-affecting epics, and make bios/FP/RR not restore any epics, including defensive ones like Dirge and UUU as soon as the dev team has the zots." Nothing about doing it after mechanus to account for possible mechanus power creep, and nothing about any sort of phased approach. Given that these changes would likely be fairly low-zot when compared to an entirely new run, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have a visceral negative reaction to massive nerfs coming before new runs do when Limbo and even Abyss are already unapproachable to many/most groups of players. So... Should I quote the three separate posts of mine where i explicitly mention Mechanus and clarified to be abundantly clear that especially for future runs this could be a problem, or the Funkys post where he says none of the edits would come until Mechanus? I'm starting to feel like you are out to get me instead of focusing on the point being discussed here. I see one post of Funky's in this thread where he says "likely with Mechanus, not before." Nothing in any of your posts within this thread. It hard to know what separate posts should be used as context, when each post is a separate thread/topic and you don't mention any of the posts for context. I'm not out to get anyone, and I'm sorry if you felt that way. I just think that context is important, and your post was lacking some very important context. Re-reading your posts a fourth time, I actually think it sounds like you want the edits before Mechanus so that Mechanus tactics don't rely on them. That's what it sounds like from your Page 2 post.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 22:44:45 GMT
No one is attempting to shift the issue. There was the core issue which I spoke to.
As I have previously stated and / or agreed with:
1) Nurfing the Asmo Rod is a fantastic idea. 2) Nurfing bios / half bios to not regen epics / paragons. 3) Rest being the source of restoring these abilities. 4) Variable rest ring consumption. 5) Limited pedestal charges. 6) Capping Fine Print to one per person, per server reset.
6 helps manage 4/5 and crappy crappy situations. All of this, paired with cooldowns I think is reasonable. I've said this. How far off is this from what you feel could be a good place?
I agreed with several things the OP said. I then said things I disagreed with. I've been operating with his OP and his subsequent remarks this entire time.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:47:27 GMT
If any of these changes are implemented, I think it would be great to do it in a phased approach, where cooldowns are slowly/over a few weeks added across things. If all of a sudden there's no way to get any epic spells back without resting, and even if you do blow a rest charge you can't use your epics, that's going to require many people who don't min/max toons to re-learn runs entirely. Is the goal here to alienate large portions of casual players who still play the mod? That to me would be incredibly toxic and not well thought out. Yeah, this is a downside of the bio nerf approach. We definitely aren't phasing anything in, though, and as I've already said it's CDs or bios, and probably not both. Bios tend to over-address the real issue, which is overuse of certain pspells, mainly. That's not the reason I'm entertaining the bio idea. I agree you have identified what is probably the largest problem with it. Yup. Not remotely true, except that the dev team does tend to listen to experienced players, and they do tend to run the endgame. I get that you're maybe a little freaked out, but 'remove flexibility and freedom'? Please. I'll spare you the game development lecture, as I'm quite sure you know better. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 5, 2020 22:55:48 GMT
This. Also the reason why these edits aren't dropping until Mechanus does. Funky I don't think timing was ever mentioned, unless I missed something somewhere. Other than in the sentence you're quoting, you mean? I agree. That's one of the major reasons we release nerfs with big new updates. And why I mentioned when the edits would be dropping. *COUGH COUGH*. Frankly, I'm still leaning towards CDs on the problem spells, which are least likely to impact the kind of players you are talking about, and much more likely to target the problem spells. Funky
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Post by woqued on Jul 5, 2020 22:56:38 GMT
So... Should I quote the three separate posts of mine where i explicitly mention Mechanus and clarified to be abundantly clear that especially for future runs this could be a problem, or the Funkys post where he says none of the edits would come until Mechanus? I'm starting to feel like you are out to get me instead of focusing on the point being discussed here. I see one post of Funky's in this thread where he says "likely with Mechanus, not before." Nothing in any of your posts within this thread. It hard to know what separate posts should be used as context, when each post is a separate thread/topic and you don't mention any of the posts for context. I'm not out to get anyone, and I'm sorry if you felt that way. I just think that context is important, and your post was lacking some very important context. Re-reading your posts a fourth time, I actually think it sounds like you want the edits before Mechanus so that Mechanus tactics don't rely on them. That's what it sounds like from your Page 2 post. Ah, Funky already had mentioned that nothing would happen until Mechanus in his very first reply, that sealed the deal. Just means I won't need to worry about them balancing around epic spam and that was enough for me and that was my primary concern, though you are right in OP it was not apparent at all - but I thought it was after the post by Funky and my further clarifications.
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Post by Paradoom on Jul 5, 2020 22:57:59 GMT
Reading this I must say wow, what a terrible idea alltoghter. I mean finetweaking the epics and putting in some cooldowns I do agree apon and making them more tactical to use. Then it's not a terrible idea altogether, is it? Any argument based on the premise that anything increasing runtimes is automatically bad, is seriously flawed, and will not get any traction with the dev team. It's akin to saying 'you should always only make things easier', which basically tosses aside the concept of balancing altogether. Funky It is also seriously flawed to assume I meant making things easier all the time. I want to make them faster. Making the run harder aint an issue, but if you dont address the runtime in a major change like this too, then that is a problem in itself. And I see adding 30 minutes easily on deeper abyss and hell runs with a change like that happening. And that has nothing to do with making it harder just putting a pain on the players for nothing. I´m on the same page as TJ with his post. Consider the more casual players here too before so easily agree to all the points that were suggested. And yes I did express myself poorly in my first post. The suggestions are indeed not all bad, and things like timers on several epics are a good idea.
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