New player feedback

[zentraxius]

This is from Kiieran and Zent, feedback as of mid 40s, playing maybe ~3 weeks, mostly gripes about inaccessibility to newer players that ultimately are preventing us from just having fun anymore.

Our concerns come down to pretty few things in general, ultimately the server has incredible design with quasiclasses, item setups, and more scripting/effort/lore than any other server by far, even surpassing big name AAA titles. The problem is how brutally unforgiving and unpleasant the few issues actually are.

#1 - 5% chance to fail anything. Ultimately the reason we've just flat given up on trying to play by ourselves anymore, the vanilla nwn mechanic of rolling a 1 = auto fail is the worst mechanic in the game, and when you get to fight swarms of enemies at a time, their 5% chance to auto win infinitely outweighs your 5% chance to auto win. Our struggles and history since hitting 40 have just been a mixture of "we can't do anything without being carried" and consistently getting destroyed by crits and instant death saves because we rolled a 1 to a saving throw whose DC was lower than our actual save, or getting crit once or twice in a single round unluckily and just fading from existence. The answer from people we've talked to has basically been saving throws are worthless if you aren't immune - except they are useful in hell, or something.

#2 - Immunities - quite simply this take all the damage or take none of it approach is incredibly unpleasant for newer players, when you've been around a while and have a collection or entire set of gear dedicated to being immune to a number of damage types, you're fine, but considering you can't unlock any of the races of interest until 60, and you become obsolete shortly before hitting 40, this is so unfriendly to get started on that we have to stop and ask, how long do we have to be miserable and frusterated before we start having fun again? Because the fun basically stopped around Zhentarim outpost and hasn't improved since then.

#3 - Subraces - By far the biggest eyecatcher/appeal of the HG server was the huge variety of subraces and build options it opened up. After.. 597 hours on the server I have unlocked exactly 1 race. The pixie. Not that great, not terrible, but the UR/BUR/XR races that caught our interest in the first place, are STILL not even obtainable because we don't have the base level required to use them. We're not *supposed* to get far with an open race, we're supposed to just.. leech until we can get to 60 and buy/beg a BUR off someone as far as I can tell?  Subraces, which were the main appeal of the server, are gated to the point where after almost 600 hours we just gave up, having unlocked exactly 1 between 2 people. I've had several subrace books rotting in bank for over a week because of the sheer level requirement. But I can't level because of the above issues.

In short, saving throws autofail is too much to deal with on top of issues #2 and #3, I'm not making this post out of some slim hope you'll suddenly change your design for the server and disable the worst mechanic on it, because it seems like you'd have done it long ago if you'd wanted to, rather I just wanted to voice the concerns and grievances we've had between the 2 of us in the time we spent here, and the things that prevented us from having as much fun as we'd have liked.

[tomaan]

Ultimately the reason we've just flat given up on trying to play by ourselves anymore

That's the thing - this is a party server. It's meant to be difficult in small numbers and there are some runs you simply cannot do without a group.

Issues #1 and #2 are mitigated by a group: more people means more targets for enemies and a better chance that somebody has the ability/skill to eliminate the targets that are giving the most trouble. In addition, you also get more xp by partying in groups: I know they're not always easy to form, but it will always behoove you to form/join one.


Issue #3 is just the law of averages. "Ultra Rare" and beyond subraces are just that...they're not supposed to be easy to find. For what it's worth, I've bought/traded for far more subraces than I've found partying. You'll find that, by the time you reach level 60, you'll have enough gold to purchase most UR subbies and a lot of BURs as well. At that point, you'l be able to run the areas that either drop them or the gear you'll need to trade for them....no begging required.


Yes, there are some runs where you'll feel "carried" at this level. You can avoid that by running level-restricted areas (Feywild, Toyshop, Trag, etc) or play a "core" character (they will always contribute something). Also remember that there are ways to contribute to a party that don't require high kill counts or massive damage output (I'm looking at you, Bards!). The more you play, the more you'll start to appreciate party balance/efficiency.

[boroie]

Aug 18, 2020 3:10:04 GMT zentraxius said:

This is from Kiieran and Zent, feedback as of mid 40s, playing maybe ~3 weeks, mostly gripes about inaccessibility to newer players that ultimately are preventing us from just having fun anymore.

Our concerns come down to pretty few things in general, ultimately the server has incredible design with quasiclasses, item setups, and more scripting/effort/lore than any other server by far, even surpassing big name AAA titles. The problem is how brutally unforgiving and unpleasant the few issues actually are.

#1 - 5% chance to fail anything. Ultimately the reason we've just flat given up on trying to play by ourselves anymore, the vanilla nwn mechanic of rolling a 1 = auto fail is the worst mechanic in the game, and when you get to fight swarms of enemies at a time, their 5% chance to auto win infinitely outweighs your 5% chance to auto win. Our struggles and history since hitting 40 have just been a mixture of "we can't do anything without being carried" and consistently getting destroyed by crits and instant death saves because we rolled a 1 to a saving throw whose DC was lower than our actual save, or getting crit once or twice in a single round unluckily and just fading from existence. The answer from people we've talked to has basically been saving throws are worthless if you aren't immune - except they are useful in hell, or something.

#2 - Immunities - quite simply this take all the damage or take none of it approach is incredibly unpleasant for newer players, when you've been around a while and have a collection or entire set of gear dedicated to being immune to a number of damage types, you're fine, but considering you can't unlock any of the races of interest until 60, and you become obsolete shortly before hitting 40, this is so unfriendly to get started on that we have to stop and ask, how long do we have to be miserable and frusterated before we start having fun again? Because the fun basically stopped around Zhentarim outpost and hasn't improved since then.

#3 - Subraces - By far the biggest eyecatcher/appeal of the HG server was the huge variety of subraces and build options it opened up. After.. 597 hours on the server I have unlocked exactly 1 race. The pixie. Not that great, not terrible, but the UR/BUR/XR races that caught our interest in the first place, are STILL not even obtainable because we don't have the base level required to use them. We're not *supposed* to get far with an open race, we're supposed to just.. leech until we can get to 60 and buy/beg a BUR off someone as far as I can tell?  Subraces, which were the main appeal of the server, are gated to the point where after almost 600 hours we just gave up, having unlocked exactly 1 between 2 people. I've had several subrace books rotting in bank for over a week because of the sheer level requirement. But I can't level because of the above issues.

In short, saving throws autofail is too much to deal with on top of issues #2 and #3, I'm not making this post out of some slim hope you'll suddenly change your design for the server and disable the worst mechanic on it, because it seems like you'd have done it long ago if you'd wanted to, rather I just wanted to voice the concerns and grievances we've had between the 2 of us in the time we spent here, and the things that prevented us from having as much fun as we'd have liked.

Well, in another perspective, myself and 2 friends entered this server with nothing several (3-4) months ago. We now all have multiple characters 60+ and have done multiple hells runs (though no demi's yet) and are all using BUR subraces. 
Yes the beginning is tough (attempting grinding beetle bellies for 100gp a go!) but you learn, adapt, make friends and allies. We quickly determined that making core classes was beneficial both to us, and those we might party with. And the crucial thing is to learn, learn, learn. Learn what mobs take and give which damage, learn what spells work and what don't, learn where the spawn points are and what kind of loot drops where. If you fail DCs, do something else. If all else fails, go level up somewhere else (grind a bit) and then come back at a higher level. Everywhere drops loot, and due to randomisation you can end up with some very valuable and useful items. If you need tags to wear equipment, frequently people advertise 'tag only' runs, or ask about joining a run just for tag/xp. A lot of players will carry you through such a run, or may even let you have a choice of loot regardless. 

Yesterday when we partied in the desert, I was trying to give you tips on damage types, etc. I don't know if you were paying attention to it but that kind of information is what makes doing that run a lot easier. Take things one encounter at a time and rest after each encounter. Don't spawn too much and if you are in a no-fugue zone then don't worry so much. Just remember that while an area might be considered level appropriate for a certain level, you are often not at that level when you lack gear and are on an open subrace. Keep an eye on the market chests, lots of nice items get posted there for reasonable prices. Especially valuable are rings that have elemental and exotic immunities. You should have a selection of rings that you swap in and out depending on the area you are visiting. With regards to spell immunities, play smarter. If things are surrounding you and spamming spells then go in sanc, throw in a summon and let it take the brunt of the attacks while you pick off targets. Sure it takes longer, but no point in complaining about it. You can't expect to play at the same level as a veteran when you are not one yourself. 

UR/BUR/XR subraces are stretch goals. You cannot expect to join a server where people have been playing for years and instantly achieve what they have achieved. The server is laid out as it is to retain interest from veteran players, to give new challenges and unachieved goals. If everything was available instantly, why would anyone stay? Yes the races can be great, but you can also do very well with an open subrace, if you play smart and pay attention. I have an open subrace ranger at level 63 or so that has done some hells runs. My friends bought their subraces from other players, but they had accumulated the money themselves. I personally grinded (ground?) an area to get a specific item to trade for a BUR race. Yes it took time but it gave me xp, gold and other equipment as well as being a good strategic learning experience. You are supposed to earn a higher tier race, not just be given it because you want one. Take your open subrace, reincarnate to a secret subrace. Adventure some more, earn a UR subrace. Then maybe jump to BUR. Very few players have XR subraces. The clue is in the name. These only drop at the very highest levels in the game. Even the BUR races typically only drop in 60-65+ areas (though there are some exceptions). If you are not even level 50, why complain about not being able to find something from an area you have no ability to visit (or survive in), and cannot even use? While there are some extremely nice and generous players out there who will help out, it is best to try and achieve these things yourself where possible. 

Oh and one simple tip for money if you are not already doing this - make sure you have a character with appraise, or one of those +10 skills amulets, then when you use a particular shop in town you should be able to get a favorable roll on the appraise. That will significantly increase the amount of money you make by selling unwanted gear. Try and focus on a single character where possible, that way you can gear it up easier and get enough xp to be able to farm gear for new lower level characters that will be hopefully on an improved subrace. 

People have given all this advice to you repeatedly over the past few weeks, yet I don't feel you are taking some of it in. You have passed the first hurdle (becoming immortal) but legendary levels are completely different to pre-LL content. Paragon levels are a completely new step up also in difficulty and complexity. Try making friends and alliances, you will find the progression goes a lot smoother when you have a party. 

[dagoon]

Some slight exaggerations there I think... my first two chars to break 60 were both open subrace, it’s more than viable to do so.

While I find it hard to believe you play 200 hours a week, 3 weeks is still brand new. I consider myself one of the newer players here and I started sometime in feb. I play ALOT and progressed much faster than many others, that said I just hit my first 80 during this weekends bonus xp, yet I’m not even close to obtaining any XR race let alone a specific cool/desired one.

HG is pretty much a party orientated server and on the whole is balanced as such. There are some areas that scale numbers of mobs in a spawn to the size of the party however. I would recommend trying out the feywild if you can’t find a proper party as thatbis one of the areas that scale to party size.

To touch on a few other points.... late game saves are very important on any front line character, and whilst not quite as important for other types they are still very nice to have. You should aim to cover effect immmnities for anything nasty that’s going to be coming your way often, as you will always roll a 1 eventually.

As someone else pointed out, the seemingly overwhelming frequency of checks and therefore failing on 1’s falls off the less you are getting hit. Proper parties, less mobs, right classes to thin he herd quickly are several different ways render them to a minor annoyance rather than a constant death cycle.

[woqued]

I also dislike autofail mechanics - it can be incredibly unfun when combined with constant need for rebuffing, reliance on epics and resting - or if you simply don't have someone to pick you up after you get unlucky and get knocked down. But it is part of the charm of this old game as well to balance around characters "too" durable and to keep things exciting.

That being said, thankfully, most of the 1 roll mechanics can be circumvented (at least until much later in the game) simply by having Misc Immunities like Immunity to Death Magic, Mind Affecting Spells, Knockdown etc; or having buffs like Life's Grace, UEF, Mind Blank/Lesser Mind Blank. Specific immunities can be needed but they (usually) aren't required until later; such as Stun, Confusion, and spell specific immunities. Summons like Shelgarns Blade and Black Blade of Disaster are immensely helpful when proceeding to deal with things and giving you time to think (Shelgarns in particular, since it is a lvl 1 spell and soaks in some of the fire even if it wouldn't kill things; it tanks some of those 1shots for you). Items to keep an eye out for are UR amulet/gloves/cloak with a huge list of misc immunities that cover most of your needs.

At around 40-50, the going does indeed get a bit rough starting out. Grinding out some basic UR gear in Deep Bats was the old go-to (doing swift full loot runs without killing stuff and then resetting) or doing easier LL runs like Myconid Depths and the new Tragidore, figuring things out. Resurrection capability by means of Rez scrolls also helps to mitigate the 1 rolling issue. Try to get your hands on set items with buffs or randomized items with buffing augmenters on them (like Aura of Vitality, UEF, Energy Buffer, Shadow Shield, Lesser Mind Blank, Mind Blank) to help out. Avoiding crits is hard; you mitigate the amount of dmg you take with immunities (only really prevalent on UR and above gear; it gets better!), AC and concealment: primary tool being AC. Amassing UR gear pieces and AoV / UEF buffs for Dodge AC helps out with this immensely at 40-59.

None of this is obvious information to a newer player, but it gets better eventually as you gather bits and pieces of both gear, experience and information & knowledge.

My go-to route early on was something like Deep Bats => Short stints to Myconids/Maze if I had magic immunity items (rings) and didn't rely on buffs: after getting a bit stronger doing short stints in the Desert and Toyshop with a small group of people (2-4). Toyshop is great, but tricky. Takes some getting used to and knowing specific vulnerabilities on the players' side to cover. If I were leveling new open subrace or maximum ultra-rare subrace characters now in the 40-50 portion of the game, I would include Tragidore into the list of runs to frequent very soon upon hitting low 40s; exp is good, some good items in there as well. Feywild for slower but safer yields. 

As a help/enticing bait to the situation I do think the Immortal, Lolth, Moad should all drop UR pieces to give a taste of 40+ life and what to look out for/what to expect; but I'm a pampered newbaby (2014 =>) as well and only really played in times of UR gear existing or other players being around to play/trade with or multiboxing, all of which solve this issue and none of which are necessarily either accessible or fun for newer players. For newer players, the complete void of UR items and less players doing 40-50 content at any given time (without powerleveling on higher level characters) is a hurdle to overcome indeed, I only made it initially due to having a nice group of people to play with on the regular and trading for stuff more experienced players no longer needed. Since there is much more content beyond 40-50 now and less traffic in the 40-50 portion of the game, the entry wall is quite high and spending immense amounts of time running through Deep Bats feels like a chore more than fun, and as such URs should be more common. People should be able to get to 60+ and make new characters more easily since there is more to do in the 60+ portion of the game, and the class/subrace variance is incredibly exciting for players not jaded on speedrunning rewards on "meta" builds.

Good luck in case this was something along the lines of a cry for help, and thanks for the feedback. If you're gone to never return, good bye and have fun playing other games.

[boroie]

Aug 18, 2020 10:05:25 GMT dagoon said:

Some slight exaggerations there I think... my first two chars to break 60 were both open subrace, it’s more than viable to do so. 

My highest level character is still a secret subrace, and it's very achievable to get one of those from the maze. 

[simpetar]

Aug 18, 2020 3:10:04 GMT zentraxius said:

#2 - Immunities - quite simply this take all the damage or take none of it approach is incredibly unpleasant for newer players, when you've been around a while and have a collection or entire set of gear dedicated to being immune to a number of damage types, you're fine, but considering you can't unlock any of the races of interest until 60, and you become obsolete shortly before hitting 40, this is so unfriendly to get started on that we have to stop and ask, how long do we have to be miserable and frusterated before we start having fun again? Because the fun basically stopped around Zhentarim outpost and hasn't improved since then.

Regarding immunity ring and general immunity gear, I recommend you to check market chest in Wandering Wyrm on server 111 every once in a while. This chest is the embodiment of "one man's trash", and gear you can buy there (immunity rings in particular) are often priced reasonably for new players. Most runs in 40-50 range require 1-2 types to be covered, with an occasional extra such as levitation or mord, and even rare rings help tremendously in this department.
It is quite common practice to put all your rings in a bag that you can pass between characters, so should you ever wish to upgrade or make new toons, your gear won't be lost. As you start making your own collection and figure out what rings you no longer need, you can happily sell them via the market chest to new players who come after you and the circle will close

[dagoon]

Aug 18, 2020 10:35:44 GMT boroie said:

Aug 18, 2020 10:05:25 GMT dagoon said:

Some slight exaggerations there I think... my first two chars to break 60 were both open subrace, it’s more than viable to do so. 

My highest level character is still a secret subrace, and it's very achievable to get one of those from the maze. 

In the case of Rakshasha secret sub, you can take that anywhere and be viable.

[Deleted]

You have a good start, Zent (on your druid). If your intention is to have fun, you will last here a long time. If you think the only way to success is living off of others generosity, it will be a short ride. This server is a great place for those willing to work for their rewards. I know...hard to do these days. But, yes, it's a party server. Hang on a bit longer and you will start to see the payoff. If not, enjoy your next adventure!

[chainlink]

Its not actually massively different to P&P D&D in respect of would you expect a level 1 character to party with a level 20 character in level 20 areas and survive?
No you would not, so level up, gear up and go for it and you'll be fine.
Along the way you will learn stuff, meet new people and find things some possibly of great value as whilst loot rarity is related to area level augments and added properties are not.
All new players should read this highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/10933?page=1 will save a tirade of !newbie questions, although if that is your bent ask away as people will generally answer if they can.
My standard comment to most new players after we've discussed what they want is make this highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25170/zomg-sorceror-hg-40-sorc as its your quickest way to get something new to 60 and even using Yuan-Ti is perfectly playable and will enable you to solo/low party number play in almost all areas up to the Hells.
The statement "I don't like Sorcerers" I meet with "well whatever you do like will be a damn sight easier to get a decent race for once you have a level 60 (or higher) sorcerer".

[sabregirl]

I understand your concerns about the roll a 1 and die mechanics but there are ways around those mechanics with items. I would highly recommend tragidore, the maze and feywild to you as easier transitions from 40 that can be done semi solo. Tragidore is relatively druid friendly, animals to emp, monsters to defoliate, pesticide etc.

Tragidore in particular has a chance to drop a robe that gives implosion immunity which is super useful in desert, uro and ssith. The maze treasure room (There's a video posted on how to get the key) has a guaranteed unlocked UR item. There's a possibility it could drop an UR book for you too.

Deepbats too is a good place to farm items. The main thing is to be careful and slow when you're a fresh immortal. It's like graduating middle school and showing up to high school. You were top of your game in 8th grade but now you're bottom of the rung again.

You can go for the dragging route which is a bit faster but it isn't absolutely necessary. The main things that help are getting more levels and improving gear. Of course it is always helpful to party up when you can. I always enjoy doing the runs mentioned with lower level 40s in a party. Maybe I can catch you ingame sometime.

-S

[woqued]

Well, to be fair, they are already past what the newbie guide offers and they ran out of fun at Zhents - so maybe the NWN classic system just rubs em the wrong way and if theres nothing to about it from dev side then it's just not their cup of tea, seems like. But glad we are all here on our gallopin horses to save the day

[chainlink]

It's not like we've not all been there at some point, I still have occasions where I'm looking at the screen muttering what the (insert suitable word here) killed me there and when the combat logs scroll through at such a speedy rate it can be a major job to figure it out.

[kiieran]

Aug 18, 2020 10:05:25 GMT dagoon said:

Some slight exaggerations there I think... I find it hard to believe you play 200 hours a week,.

Ah, yeah, I think that’s between the two of us lol, but it’s not exactly untrue in that case....

[tomaan]

Aug 18, 2020 17:11:52 GMT kiieran said:

Aug 18, 2020 10:05:25 GMT dagoon said:

Some slight exaggerations there I think... I find it hard to believe you play 200 hours a week,.

Ah, yeah, I think that’s between the two of us lol, but it’s not exactly untrue in that case....

I don't know...I lurk Webdash quite a bit and see you guys online a lot!


PS - one more tip on gold: if you don't have high appraise then sell through the split room in the Wyrm. It will usually give you a better price than you'll get from a vendor.