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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 7, 2020 2:25:46 GMT
Something being a D&D staple doesn't necessarily mean it's good "gameplay" it might be more rewarding when you are physically rolling a dice, but in an actual video game hundreds of rolls go out per round and that measly 5% becomes very common, far too common. The scenerios you experience in NWN are practically unfeasible in a DND setting because you'd spend weeks of gameplay to get through a single turn. In a computer game however that entire week can be autocalculated and performed in seconds, also you died. Because you, a grandmaster level 60 paladin with 96 fort, rolled a 1 against some goblins 12 dc death spell. That's not remotely good gameplay Your comparison is incomplete. In PnP, if you fail a critical save, you have to spend hours rolling a new character, and would potentially get left spectating the rest of the session. In NWN on HG, you spend a few seconds kissing dirt before someone rezzes you. Also, autofail on one is not just something from PnP D&D. You might want to read up a bit on game design for further insight before condemning the mechanic. Funky
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Post by zentraxius on Sept 8, 2020 0:22:53 GMT
I have a fair bit of research into game design and can quite confidently condemn the mechanic. Trying to pursue a career in game design and I'm taking classes on the subject, I won't pretend to be as experienced with the subject as you or the rest of the servers DM's, but I'm still not a fan of the mechanic.
A 5% chance is far too high to automatically fail or succeed something that is far beneath/far above you. It's simply not realistic. Sure, rolling a 1 and then another 1 for a "critical fail" might be realistic, but when you are facing say, 10 mobs, and each of them has a 5% chance to just flat kill you regardless of how much you outgear/outmatch them, it's not very fun gameplay because that 5% is going to roll *alot*, and while getting very specific gear to be immune to the effect may work some of the time, the rest of the time you're kind of left wondering why you bothered carefully balancing saves and defense/conceal/etc, even if rolling a 1 caused you to take a -10 saving throw penalty against the DC in the first place, it would be more fair. There is good reason why the mechanic has been removed from most servers, and has been made into an easily toggleable feature in the EE. While there are some who swear by the DND bible that dice determines the fate of all things, I'm not a fan of it myself. It can be fun, admittedly, when you're rolling the dice yourself a couple times a turn, but hundreds of dice rolls are going out every round/6 seconds and you have a vastly higher chance of getting nuked than you do of nuking.
During my PNP sessions, dice rolls are definitely used to influence the flow of gameplay but not to tell the story in full, in battles/scenes where it's been somewhat equal, the dice can definitely be the deciding factor, but when it's very 1 sided (eg level 5-7 party vs CR 30+ encounter) the dice being very generous might let you escape, but certainly not win that encounter, and vice versa. Different styles for different people I guess. I don't expect the server to change the mechanic, due to how core/baseline it is to the balance of the server, and how long it's been here. I'm still gonna be unhappy when 20 mobs throw instant death spells at me until I roll a 1 lol.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 0:34:46 GMT
Get the gear you need to become immune and problem solved. It really is that simple. Depending on the item(s) involved you may not have the means for getting it directly, but obtaining items veteran players who likely have or can easily obtain what you need for it can easily be achieved.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 8, 2020 0:42:55 GMT
There is good reason why the mechanic has been removed from most servers, and has been made into an easily toggleable feature in the EE. Instead of ad populum fallacies, try addressing my point. Also, if we are going the ad populum route, explain Gears, XCOM, and all the other popular franchises that continue to employ it. FWIW, I agree insofar as I would actually prefer a more granular fail rate, and you can find me writing plenty about it. But, as prep says, we have built ways of addressing that into the server, and I wouldn't disable fail on 1 even if we were converted to EE. In fact, there are a few critters in Mechanus that utilize an opposite mechanic... Funky
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Post by woqued on Sept 8, 2020 14:56:06 GMT
If you hate autofail mechanics to a huge extent, it should be noted that there almost always exists a way of playing whether it involve gearing, party composition, approaching the spawn and tools properly used that reduces chance of death to essentially 0. Tactics used, spawns split, dealt with separately, epics/paragons properly used and so forth once you gain access to them; monsters CC'd/killed before they use their shit and so on.
If you dislike how it forces you to learn or dislike the pigeonholing to certain ways of play (i.e full group of CC fighters will never achieve this type of safety in all areas of the game no matter how they play/gear, nor will an individual character of any class on its own) is another thing, but you for sure can play around the autofail mechanics once you know how unless you limit yourself deliberately with challenge in mind - be it player count, party composition or gearing/subrace choices. At least to the point that the argument of getting PUMMELED by autofails becomes mute, you made your bed if you end up in that position. Players are given a lot of tools on HG to play around it.
On the other hand, there are VERY few "raidfail" mechanics on HG, which have been popular in plenty of MMOs, including popular ones like WoW and GW2. HG in fact is very lenient for an experienced and power-gaming party - to the point of feeling too easy and forgiving, and the issue is less challenge and more time consumption for many players, but not gonna go down that path of thought further.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 8, 2020 19:58:47 GMT
On the other hand, there are VERY few "raidfail" mechanics on HG, which have been popular in plenty of MMOs, including popular ones like WoW and GW2. HG in fact is very lenient for an experienced and power-gaming party - to the point of feeling too easy and forgiving, and the issue is less challenge and more time consumption for many players, but not gonna go down that path of thought further. True enough. In part that's because the highest level areas at present are 60-65, and the level cap is at 80. Elder Evils will likely pose much more significant challenge, though we are obviously still tweaing as we go. Unfortunately our timetable has been slowed by RL careers of myself and the other admins, exacerbating this and other problems. Anyway, on an unrelated note, a LOT of work on Mechanus got done this weekend, and a fresh update with some bugfixes is in the works. Funky
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Post by therealmilli on Sept 8, 2020 20:09:35 GMT
Rolling 1's made me rage quit
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Post by tomaan on Sept 8, 2020 20:53:35 GMT
Rolling 1's made me rage quit Ha! Ha! I won't go THAT far, but I know what you mean....especially when it sends you to Limbo! That said, I agree with woqued in that a decently balanced party can handle the most dangerous checks...it's really only a big issue when soloing or running in a small group imho. And look on the bright side -- it goes both ways!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 21:02:56 GMT
The penalty for limbo is extremely light though too as previously mentioned. Per Funky that’s do to where we are in the runs relative to max level progression but still. You can immediately return to your party via potion / apport / SOS / Asmodeus necklace, plus you can get the echoes back immediately with only a brief pause to hop.
Leveraging HGX you can be cognizant if timers to eliminate all risk of limboing if needing though going that far is almost never needed either.
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