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Post by simpetar on Sept 13, 2020 10:43:57 GMT
. . . Well, a dire tiger is unarmed, but I assume it has creature weapons. So do unarmed feats apply to dire tiger? Or do I need Creature feats? What about harpy and medusa and Ilithid? I believe they have creature weapons, but are also unarmed. AAAAHHHH!!!! Oof, so I have to wait until legendary to get constitution buffs? I guess I will put remaining points in constitution then, instead of Charisma, now that I can reincarnate. My 8 constitution has left me very weak at level 21, but I was expecting bumps from the forms. :-( ALL forms benefit from unarmed feats. Creature weapon feats are not even available to players, except for WS/EWS that are dubious to say the best. Most shifter forms get increase in strength and/or dexterity in LLs and form feats, but not constitution. There are essentially 2 viable to make a shifter: "ability mage" that uses DC based abilities and tank. The former will maximize wisdom, 3-4 forms at LFF3 or higher and not bother with any weapon feats, because they will not be hitting anything in melee. The latter will take all the unarmed feats available to them and specialize in only 1 form (usually humanoid, rarely undead). Both builds are quite different from each other and require a different mindset, gearing, stats, even classes. Hybrids and crossovers usually fail, simply because there is not enough room for all the required feats to accommodate both roles efficiently in end game. My advice to you is to stick to one path, you can follow a posted build, and see if you like the playstyle. If you try to mix and match both styles, you are setting yourself up for a really hard time post level 40. P.S. Harpy, medusa and illithid make best use of their special abilities: curse song, petrification gaze and stunning cone. The last 2 are DC based, so you need high wisdom to make them work well.
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Post by jelricle on Sept 13, 2020 13:26:25 GMT
'Kay. I think my initial questions are answered a) So it sounds as though creature weapon feats are unnecessary because unarmed feats work just as well on any form that might possibly have creature weapons. b) Although not documented, Shapes no longer give temp HP. With Legendary Form Focus, you get HP bump from Constitution changes.
Separately, Non-spell abilities supposedly use 10 + Form Rank (listed with each form) + Wis modifier + (foci * 3) for DC. This leads to two questions: 1) What is "form rank" vs "foci"? Which of those is Legendary Form Focus? I could not find any "Form Rank" listed with each form 2) Which abilities are spell and which are non-spell?
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Post by Methes on Sept 13, 2020 13:39:43 GMT
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Post by simpetar on Sept 13, 2020 14:19:30 GMT
a) Correct. b) Yes, although increase in constitution from shifting is not as notable as strength or dexterity. If you have higher constitution unshifted than in a form, it will stay there when you shift. This is why many tanky shifters pump their constitution rather than wisdom; they don't care about DC and dex + str will skyrocket naturally.
1) Form rank roughly corresponds to spell level: just as meteor swarm is more powerful than fireball, red dragon is more powerful than red wyrmling, you get the idea. Form focus is a feat you take to make that form abilities hit harder, increasing DC, and sometimes other effects. 2) Spell abilities are any that say in their description "as the spell". For instance drider igms or web, everything cast by rakshasa, baelnorn sunburst and positive strike, azer burning hands etc.
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Post by tomaan on Sept 13, 2020 15:01:41 GMT
Oof, so I have to wait until legendary to get constitution buffs? I guess I will put remaining points in constitution then, instead of Charisma, now that I can reincarnate. My 8 constitution has left me very weak at level 21, but I was expecting bumps from the forms. :-( 8 will never cut it for any build period. Even if it got boosted to 40 when shifted, you wouldn't have enough hp to shift back in most situations. I'd recommend reviewing the existing shifter builds as they answer a lot of your questions. In fact, there's even a Drunken Guide to Shifting in the shifter forums that's still relevant. If you want to build a tank, check out the Komodo build. There's also an in-depth discussion (albeit a bit older)of shifter mechanics in the Swiss Army Tank build. And don't forget the test chamber. I answered 90% of my shifter questions there through trial and error (it's a lot faster than waiting for a reply on the forums). actually, I lose HP when I shift -- base form Con is higher than any of the shifted forms Con....but that's also why I pumped Wis instead of Con on my tank.
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Post by jelricle on Sept 14, 2020 2:49:05 GMT
Thanks for putting up with all these questions, everybody! > All that is written here highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/9518/class-changes-documentsSadly, that documentation is a bit confusing for this newbie, and maybe for others. - The documentation's reference to creature weapon feats should be removed, since it seems as though unarmed feats cover every form which has creature weapons. Mentioning creature weapons is just confusing - The documentation claims "Unarmed weapon focus feats now benefit armed forms while shifted." which is misleading. It should say that unarmed feats help armed forms _once you take Legendary focuses in those forms_ (or, better yet, don't mention it at all in that section, since there is documentation about LFF and unarmed feats, in a later section) - There should be a comment about no hit point bump from forms until Legendary levels (and, even then, you only get a bump from increased constitution in forms with legendary focus) - The doc's don't mention the Gargoyle's Falchion, which renders minotaur shape essentially unnecessary! :-D - The docs should probably say "_Item and armor attributes merge for all forms_ when you shift, with the exception of Shield AC. " instead of "_All equipment merges_ when you shift, with the exception of Shield AC." (but maybe I am the only one who considers their weapon as equipment . . .) > 1) Form rank roughly corresponds to spell level: just as meteor swarm is more powerful than fireball, red dragon is more powerful than red wyrmling, you get the idea. Form focus is a feat you take to make that form abilities hit harder, increasing DC, and sometimes other effects. Okay. So that is different from LFF; thank you! But I cannot find where form rank is listed. I can guess wildshape I, II and III but what is the rank of Dragon shape? Is it simply rank 2? What about all the others? Test Chamber?!?!?! Thank you so much!!!! (Although, for any other newbie reading this, it is called "Hall of Training" in the wiki. ;-) just create a new character with "[Test]" at the start of the name) Additional question: - The documentation claims that "most Shifter abilities can receive up to a 100% damage bonus from the Animal Empathy skill." but it doesn't tell which abilities or how the AE values translate. I did not find any change in wyrmling fire breath, nor for kobold trap. What abilities have _damage_ that benefit from animal empathy (aside from harpy's curse song)?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 14, 2020 2:52:56 GMT
So. These are legitimate questions, and our documentation is definitely far from perfect. Skilled/experienced shifter players, care to chime in? We're in the process of updating our documentation.
Funky
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Post by tomaan on Sept 14, 2020 3:49:05 GMT
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Post by simpetar on Sept 14, 2020 8:56:31 GMT
Okay. So that is different from LFF; thank you! But I cannot find where form rank is listed. I can guess wildshape I, II and III but what is the rank of Dragon shape? Is it simply rank 2? What about all the others? It is in the very same document you linked, right next to each individual form Iron Golem (Rank 5), Stone Golem (Rank 6), Crystal Golem (Rank 7), and so on. Additional question: - The documentation claims that "most Shifter abilities can receive up to a 100% damage bonus from the Animal Empathy skill." but it doesn't tell which abilities or how the AE values translate. I did not find any change in wyrmling fire breath, nor for kobold trap. What abilities have _damage_ that benefit from animal empathy (aside from harpy's curse song)? Spells and abilities that deal elemental damage (or partial elemental damage), such as dragon breath, beholder cold ray, azer fire beam etc. Physical (e.g. manticore spikes), exotic (beholder negative ray) or esoteric (mindflayer stun cone) don't get the bonus. Rakshasa ice storm gets the cold part buffed, bludgeoning part is unaffected. Direct attacks are unaffected by AE, not even bonuses added from forms (like dragon claws). Kobold trap deals 1d10 per shifter level acid and piercing damage - acid damage will get boosted, piercing will not.
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Post by jelricle on Sept 14, 2020 15:13:47 GMT
Re. Form Rank: Thank you!! That is so bizarre. I do not know how I missed that. I could have sworn I searched for "Rank".
Separately, do we know how animal empathy translates into damage increase from spell like abilities? I tried testing animal empathy buffing against the zombies in the graveyard. I did not see a noticeable difference in the wyrmling breath or acid portion of the commando trap. I will try again.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 14, 2020 15:53:14 GMT
The same way lore boosts damage for casters: +1% for each point of AE above 20 (including gear and buffs), up to +100% at 120 AE. Testing isn't easy, because you are still dealing with random dice rolls and shifters unlike casters don't have access to maximize spell. Best way to see the difference is to make a test character you can level and relevel as you like, and ask the trainer for +50 skill buff.
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Post by jelricle on Sept 19, 2020 20:59:49 GMT
Have Rakshasa and Risen Lord form lost their damage reduction abilities?
When I type "!list imm", I do not see the Rakshasa's 15/+5 damage reduction, nor the risen lord's 15/+3. Thos are general reduction. Additionally, the risen lord's slashing and piercing immunities are not showing up.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 20, 2020 9:26:50 GMT
I believe so. Damage reduction will not show in !list imm, only resistance and immunity will. However, most effect from gear merge when you shift, including DR and imms, so if you have equipment with those, they will carry over. If a form has innate immunity, such as Stone Golem in siege mode, it will say in their description (and immunities generally stack, so it is quite possible to get your stone golem completely immune to physical damage). Finally, 15/+5 or 15/+3 will not protect you from most stuff past lvl 20 areas. To give you an idea, East Road bandits attack with +5, lvl 40 drows attack with +10 or +11, stuff in LLs have +12 or +13, and end-game baddies from lvl 60 and up use +14, +15, some +16 and higher.
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Post by jelricle on Sept 20, 2020 20:16:39 GMT
Wow, good to know.
Still, the 50% slashing resist of Risen Lord is painful to lose (No pun intended)
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Post by simpetar on Sept 21, 2020 6:38:23 GMT
You can safely assume to have around 50% physical immunities baseline: 30% from heavy armor, 10% from cape, 10% from gloves. Other slots sometimes come with phys immunities too, typically 5% on boots, amulets, or shields. The real bane of undead forms is positive damage, most of them except baelnorn have vulnerability (-50% for Risen Lord iirc). For real, if you get caught in the middle of Earthquake spam as undead, you are toast.
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