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Post by chainlink on Sept 17, 2020 9:51:27 GMT
We've been there with my PM build highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25727/sertonn-dhuum-30pm-wiz-ranger and I trust DB as he knows more than I'll ever be able to fit in my brain. To be honest specialization hits your spell options really hard so its not bad that it gives you an extra benefit. As he posted this is what you should do - For my Pale Master builds, I like to have the following for paragon feats: 63 - PSK Necromancy - Like Simpetar mentioned, only need ESF to qualify for PSK. 66 - Paragon Spell Penetration 69 - PSF Abjuration 72 - PSK Abjuration - It is nice to have the 2nd use of Mass Spell Destruction (MSD), many PM targets need to be have buffs stripped to become vulnerable to spells. 75 - Paragon Adaptivity 1 78 - Paragon Adaptivity 2 - Layer penalties have an effect on spell DCs. I think there is more value improving the dc of all spells than to use the feats to improve the dc of an already high dc Weird spell. The only reasons for changing this would be if you never plan to take your PM to areas with penalties in which case you could justifiably take the Illusion line to PSK because penalties wouldn't matter to you or you have a Weird fetish (the amount of people I see casting this spell at mobs that it does nothing to I'm going to have to assume that some players are this way inclined?) and/or want the Otto's Merciless Nightmare paragon spell.
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Post by starcore on Sept 17, 2020 11:33:51 GMT
I'd really like to know for certain whether PSK = PSF for DC... I'm not really convinced in either direction.
It should be easy enough to test though....
If someone has PSK, without PSF, And could cast a wail or something, and report what their DC is, along with their int bonus it should be easy to figure out...
If it does, then its a super easy choice, and the above is an ideal paragon setup. (It probably also means that the wiki & forum information needs to be updated)
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Post by chainlink on Sept 17, 2020 12:47:48 GMT
Take DB's word for it, he knows his stuff and then some, if he says 'PSK is equal to PSF for DC' then take it as correct as he will have tested it, he has at least one (and possibly more) level 80 PMs.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 17, 2020 16:00:23 GMT
PSK includes the bonuses of PSF, just like all the previous foci include the lesser ones. It works even if you skip LSF and PSF, thanks to specialization.
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Post by starcore on Sept 17, 2020 21:14:57 GMT
Nice, that means 2 free feats
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Post by starcore on Sept 17, 2020 23:25:47 GMT
(Greater Ruin and or EMA are not bad calls for the legendary feat) So now i'm thinking about the replacement for my spare legendary feat, Is EMA cast at PM Necro/Illusion caster levels (CL67) , or is it cast at the reduced level (CL25)? It seems insanely good if its done at full level (40 - 67) /2) = 13 Dodge AC ((CL - 40) * 2) = 54 Concentration, Discipline, and Parry skills. +Epic Dodge If it's cast at the reduced level, then presumably you would only get the non HG variant, which gives +20 armor AC? I assume would not stack with the armor granted by casting regular mage armor with PSF Abj (Abjuration foci * 4) Armor AC) = 20 armor AC Meaning it provides minimal benefit?
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Post by starcore on Sept 18, 2020 3:15:06 GMT
Given what just came to light from the discussion on discord, Apparently you can cheese the !despecialise command (you can despecialise if you ban a school that you have ESF for) You can use this to specialise in a school, Take the PSK feat, then despecialise, and repeat. So given that, I could build something like the following: (Making sure to always ban a school you have ESF for to use as a pivot to despecalise) Wiz 9 / Ran 1 / PM 70 Book: Pen Sub: Negatai Race: Human Spec: Any Ban1: Ban2: Str 8 Dex ? Con ? Int 18 (24) Wis 8 Cha 8 (10) Race Feats: Still Auto Still 1 Auto Still 2 Heavy Armor (Ranger Bonus) SF Nec GSF Nec SF Illusion GSF Illusion SF Abj GSF Abj SF Div GSF Div Empower Great Int 1-7 Maximise ESF Nec ESF Abj ESF Illusion ESF Div Auto Still 3 Great int 8-10 Legendary Spell Pen SF Trans GSF Trans ESF Trans Paragon Spell Pen PSK Nec PSK Abj PSK Illusion PSK Trans PSK Div
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Post by chainlink on Sept 18, 2020 6:11:16 GMT
I would say that's a bug and will be fixed as it was not the intention of specialization so I wouldn't count on it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 6:17:00 GMT
Glad to hear it Chainlink!
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Post by starcore on Sept 18, 2020 7:23:14 GMT
(Greater Ruin and or EMA are not bad calls for the legendary feat) So now i'm thinking about the replacement for my spare legendary feat, Is EMA cast at PM Necro/Illusion caster levels (CL67) , or is it cast at the reduced level (CL25)? It seems insanely good if its done at full level (40 - 67) /2) = 13 Dodge AC ((CL - 40) * 2) = 54 Concentration, Discipline, and Parry skills. +Epic Dodge If it's cast at the reduced level, then presumably you would only get the non HG variant, which gives +20 armor AC? I assume would not stack with the armor granted by casting regular mage armor with PSF Abj (Abjuration foci * 4) Armor AC) = 20 armor AC Meaning it provides minimal benefit? Answering my own question here (just discovered the test chamber... its awesome) It looks like a PM with 10wiz/50PM gets CL 60 applied to EMA (not sure why, maybe it just caps at that, or maybe because the epic spell feats don't have a school associated?)
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Post by starcore on Sept 18, 2020 8:17:06 GMT
I would say that's a bug and will be fixed as it was not the intention of specialization so I wouldn't count on it. Just to confirm then, 1. Taking PSK with only ESF (and not LSF / PSF) is NOT a bug, and i'm free to use that in my build? 2. De-specializing to do this multiple times (for other schools) IS a bug, and i should not do that as part of my build?
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Post by chainlink on Sept 18, 2020 9:02:55 GMT
I would say that's a bug and will be fixed as it was not the intention of specialization so I wouldn't count on it. Just to confirm then, 1. Taking PSK with only ESF (and not LSF / PSF) is NOT a bug, and i'm free to use that in my build? 2. De-specializing to do this multiple times (for other schools) IS a bug, and i should not do that as part of my build? That would be my opinion and the NWN epics should count PM levels as caster levels as it is not a HG Quasiclass.
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Post by simpetar on Sept 18, 2020 11:34:03 GMT
Correct. Caster level for EMA (and all other epic spells, original or HG custom) is generally PM + wizard + LLs. If an epic or paragon spell counts PLs in their effects, it is explicitly stated in their description, this is not the case for EMA however. There are no shenanigans here concerning increased or decreased CL for being a PM. AC and skill bonuses fall into their respective caps (20 for dodge AC and 50 for skills). That is not to say that they are useless, if you hit the caps without EMA from gear, it single handedly counters any layer penalties. Epic dodge is just icing on the cake. Correct, this is working as intended: "In order to learn paragon spells, you must know the epic spell in the school, and have either wizard school specialization in the school, or take both Paragon Spell Focus and Paragon Spell Knowledge feats in the school." My gut feeling is that you really should not do that While technically not a bug, it would give the build a significant advantage, and probably be nerfed very fast. Also, unless you have a lvl 80 wizard or PM as a reinc project, respecializing such a build would be enormous time grind with severe drawbacks, repeating the chore all the way up to at least lvl 75.
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Post by chainlink on Sept 18, 2020 12:03:10 GMT
Correct. Caster level for EMA (and all other epic spells, original or HG custom) is generally PM + wizard + LLs. If an epic or paragon spell counts PLs in their effects, it is explicitly stated in their description, this is not the case for EMA however. There are no shenanigans here concerning increased or decreased CL for being a PM. AC and skill bonuses fall into their respective caps (20 for dodge AC and 50 for skills). That is not to say that they are useless, if you hit the caps without EMA from gear, it single handedly counters any layer penalties. Epic dodge is just icing on the cake. Correct, this is working as intended: "In order to learn paragon spells, you must know the epic spell in the school, and have either wizard school specialization in the school, or take both Paragon Spell Focus and Paragon Spell Knowledge feats in the school." My gut feeling is that you really should not do that While technically not a bug, it would give the build a significant advantage, and probably be nerfed very fast. Also, unless you have a lvl 80 wizard or PM as a reinc project, respecializing such a build would be enormous time grind with severe drawbacks, repeating the chore all the way up to at least lvl 75. That exactly matches what I was thinking, only really works on a level 80 reincarnation anything else will be painfully gimped DC wise on its way to 80 and if you do it before 80 you'll be leaking xp faster than the Titanic leaked water. Methinks effectively saving ten feats, LSF & PSF for five schools, might be considered a bug or more likely an exploit even if its a pain to carry out, lets see.
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Post by starcore on Sept 20, 2020 1:47:26 GMT
If using full plate, i believe the max dex bonus is 3? Is there a benefit in taking base stats with dex above +0? Do saves not get affected by the bonus cap or something? I assume there is some benefit as most builds seem to do this (chainlink, you took 16 in the original version of you build that was using plate?) By the way, i want to say thank you all again for putting up with all my questions! It really is much appreciated. Especially chainlink, you've really taken the time to go through and explain things, i really appreciate it, and I've basically ended up more or less copying your build And dagoon for helping me out with race books and gear! That's totally opened up a whole new set of possibilities for me
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