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Post by tomaan on Jan 27, 2021 15:34:18 GMT
Okay, enter the newb with their questions! Why do you only list 40 levels? (Shifter 29 - Rogue 3 - Druid 8) Is it just assumed that the next 40 are shifter levels? yeah....the post subject has it out to level 60, but the end result is the same - all legendary and paragon levels are Shifter - What does "60 (86 @lvl60 +14 gear)" mean? Also, can't gear boost you up to +50? That means it's at 86 at level 60 with +14 gear and can hit a max level of 136 with +50 skill point bonus. I do that because my builds need to perform their key functions before they reach demi status. - I assume that AB and AC bonus from craft armor/weapon include bonus skill points from equipment and intelligence, rather than being like AC from tumble which only looks at raw tumble score. Even so, why boost craft armor/weapon to anything other than (multiples of 40) + (40 - your max int bonus)? If your final int is 46, then that is a total +18 bonus. Plus you can get +12 int from items for another +6 bonus, giving you a craft bonus of +24. Why not boost armor and weapon crafting to 56 instead of to 51 and 63? Are you counting on crafting bonus points from equipment? AC and AB mainly count in the middle of a fight; is there equipment with good crafting bonus that is worth wearing in the middle of a fight? (the possible +1 to AC and AB that I have seen in crafting bonus from equipment has not yet been worth sacrificing combat bonuses from other equipment) I'm just too lazy to do the math to be honest so I raise both as high as I can. Craft Armor is a non-essential skill for this build so it only has leftover skill points (51). Also, final stats are listed at their max value - INT is 30 base or 46 with +16 gear. But yeah, you could probably take a few points out of craft weapon and move them to craft armor if you wanted an extra point of AC. - Ugh, What is the highest DC traps and locks people have encountered? - You can get +70 to your skill check from equipment and taking 20. If I keep my ranger build, next reincarnation, I can get up to 41 without skill focus feats. That is a base of 111. - Add in int bonus on an int of 56 (base of 46 plus 12 from equipment) and you have another +24 to search and disable trap; this gives a total of 135 search and disable traps (Effectively 125 unless we convince Funky to let Kobold commandoes disable DC 35+ traps) - Dexterity for Kenku is 75 (base 63 + 12 from equipment) for another +32 to open locks; this gives a total of 143 open lock. never playtested this one and not a lot of rogue experience. Working on another rogue build now so if I get more info I'll post there.
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Post by jelricle on Dec 14, 2021 0:56:46 GMT
So I am about to reincarnate with a more playable Shifter in the hells, but before I do, I wanted to pass on that my poor excuse for a picky shifter has held up for me in the pre-hells areas. With what I know now, I can solo just about all the non-fugue runs while only facing death during the boss fights (except Loca, which is probably due more to my impatience at slowly working through the zerg rushes of the later areas; also, I still have to try the Hive on my own)
Remember, all this is at level 60, not 80
Taking 20 let's me hit 134 open locks and 112 Disable traps and 110 search. I went 8 Druid/ 8 Shifter/ 4 Ranger / 40 Shifter, to max out AB. If I need to go back in 3 months, I will probably drop any pretense at AB in favor of AC and DC; I might stick a single splash of rogue at level 40. That would bring me to 146 OL, 124 DT and 122 search, without feats -- More if a certain developer would give Mindflayer form an int boost! :-P ;-) -- Not hells level, but if I skip dragon form (which I only took for fun) I might be able to get feats to hit DB's 157 locks (Dunno DB's trap DC)
My triple focus forms (humanoid and wildshape) have DC 42 + form rank. My single focus forms (all others, except dragon) have 36. If I ignore AB feats (Intuitive attack?! Really?!) I could have taken 4 more greater wisdoms for an additional 2 DC. It may sound low, but dropping 36 to 42 traps which each to 150+ acid and 150+ piercing, even with the save, take out most problems.
Naked AC runs from 42 to 57 across the forms. It boosts to 104 - 124 with my existing gear. Only my dodge is maxed up to +20. Armor, natural and deflection are only +17; a lvl40 rogue splash could get my tumble from +6 to +8 for another +2. I was sitting on over 40 skill points, which I could have used in craft armor for another +1 AC (I dumped it into Lore, so I could appraise my gems, before reincarnating) My forms tend to have 60% - 75% conceal, though; dunno how good that is considered.
. . . Let's not talk about AB (naked, my forms have 50-68. My equipment gets me 68-87)
Naked, my saves are in the high 30's, low 40's. My equipment boosts them to the high 60's, low 70's.
I was a basic human. No sub race (My reincarnation will be Anarch. Thanks xPrepx!)
I started with 8's in STR, DEX and CHA, and 16's for CON, INT and WIS. All increases went to WIS.
So, like I said, it treated me well pre-hells and getting those 110 DC chests disarmed and open has been a plus. I can even solo the beholders, with my only concern being Zorgbot. Toymaker and archives are a breeze. I can wipe out the earthly side of Rona's tree house. The Hells are another story, although I occasionally did manage to do better than some non-bots in my subsequent Tiamat runs! :-D
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Post by jelricle on Dec 14, 2021 1:30:59 GMT
Feats: * Automatic, but of interest + Chosen by me and appreciated - Chosen by me because I am a newb, and will be skipped, next time to free up feat slots. ? Chosen because I have an exotic weapon with +13 and good damage. Probably skip it next time.
Druid level feats: * Animal Companion * Armor Proficiency (light) * Armor Proficiency (medium) * Shield Proficiency * Weapon Proficiency (druid) + Alertness + Luck of Heroes - Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Ranger Level Feats: * Dual-Wield * Weapon Proficiency (martial) * Weapon Proficiency (simple) + Favored Enemy (outsiders) ? Weapon Proficiency (exotic)
Shifter Level Feats: + Toughness + Armor Skin + Undead Shape + Outsider Shape + Great Wisdom I + Great Wisdom II + Great Wisdom III + Construct Shape + Great Wisdom IV + Great Wisdom V + Great Wisdom VI - Dragon Shape - Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) - Intuitive Attack - Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Legendary Level Feats: + Dodge (From Dachy blood) + Legendary Form Focus (Construct 1) + Legendary Form Focus (Humanoid 1) + Legendary Form Focus (Humanoid 2) + Legendary Form Focus (Humanoid 3) + Legendary Form Focus (Outsider 1) + Legendary Form Focus (Undead 1) + Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 1) + Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 2) + Legendary Form Focus (Wildshape 3)
Paragon Level Feats: * Weapon Proficiency (creature) + Great Wisdom VII
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Post by jelricle on Dec 14, 2021 1:44:12 GMT
Skills: + Chosen by me and appreciated ? Chosen by me to be able to handle traps and locks - Chosen by me because I am a newb, and will be skipped, next time to free up skill points (except Lore, which was just a skill dump to get to level 60 before reincarnating)
Druid level skills: + Pick Pocket +1 (2pts) - Spellcraft +22
Ranger level skills: + Discipline +23 ? Search +23 ? Set Trap +5 - Move Silently +23
Shifter level skills: + Animal Empathy +43 + Concentration +30 + Tumble +20 (40 pts) ? Disable Trap +21 (42 pts) ? Open Lock +21 (42 pts) - Hide +23
Legendary and Paragon level skills: + Animal Empathy +20 + Concentration +33 + Discipline +10 (20 pts) + Tumble +10 (20 pts) ? Disable Trap +10 (20 pts) ? Open Lock +10 - Lore +42
Final: + Animal Empathy: 63 + Concentration: 63 + Discipline: 31 (39 pts) + Pick Pocket: 1 (2 pts) + Tumble: 30 (60 pts) ? Disable Trap: 31 (62 points) ? Open Lock: 31 (62 points) ? Search: 31 (39 pts) ? Set Trap: 5 - Hide: 23 - Lore: 42 - Move Silently: 23 - Spellcraft: 22
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Post by simpetar on Dec 14, 2021 7:13:15 GMT
As you prefaced this that you want to play this build in hells: you will not be able to handle any chests at all. 127 is the skill cap for vast majority of PC skills and if you want to fill rogue duties, you need to have the 3 skills maxed unshifted. That is, 127 before you take 20. Which brings us to the following:
1. 112 Disarm Trap is low. You need 127, plain and simple. 2. 110 Search (before taking 20) is, once again, 17 points short of what you need in hells. 3. 134 Open Lock will be slashed down to 127, but I'm assuming that is while you are in Kobold form. Every locked chest in legendary areas requires at least +12 lockpicks, but you cannot use lockpicks while shifted.
Out of these 3 skills, only Search may be worth keeping. You will need an elf-based subrace to get it where it needs to be, preferably one with bonus to intelligence - for instance female Drow Noble, Stargazer, or (in worse case) Undying. Elves get +2 to Search innately, and more importantly, thanks to Able Learner they are able to raise cross-class skills all the way to 63. It is possible for elf shifter to splash 1 ranger level and then max Search (it is ranger class skill), and be able to find secrets in all runs, provided that you have enough skill points. But once again: if you want to take this character to hells, forget about Open Lock and Disarm Trap (and the rogue level), and leave handling chests to the professionals.
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Post by simpetar on Dec 14, 2021 7:20:08 GMT
Final: + Animal Empathy: 63 + Concentration: 63 + Discipline: 31 (39 pts) + Pick Pocket: 1 (2 pts) + Tumble: 30 (60 pts) ? Disable Trap: 31 (62 points) ? Open Lock: 31 (62 points) ? Search: 31 (39 pts) ? Set Trap: 5 - Hide: 23 - Lore: 42 - Move Silently: 23 - Spellcraft: 22 Animal Empathy, Discipline, Pick Pocket are ok. Tumble should be 60, take Blooded at level 1 and then Legendary Skill Affinity, it will pay dividends. 63 Concentration is slightly overkill on non-caster, 20 points are usually enough. Disable Trap, Open Lock, Search - see my post above. Set Trap - even as synergy, it is useless to you. Hide - you MUST max this, to 63 and then preferably put more points during Paragon Levels. Hide is your second line of defence (probably even first), thanks to Mass Camouflage from your druid / ranger friends. Lore - useless to you. Move Silently - useless to everybody. Spellcraft - useless to you. You probably forgot about Craft Armor, also to be max. As a shifter you will often have to stay in/close to front lines, and high AC (together with conceal from Hide) will help you survive. This includes stuff like 60 Tumble (after Legendary Skill Affinity), using Improved Expertise as muscle memory, max Craft Armor and potentially Armor Skin (if you have Anarch or can otherwise squeeze it in). Listen is another useful skill, shifters have a number of touch attacks (melee and ranged). You probably don't need full 63, but something in the 40-50 range doesn't hurt. High wisdom will do the rest of the job.
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Post by chainlink on Dec 14, 2021 8:26:12 GMT
My question would be what exactly are you trying to achieve with the base build? It looks like a wisdom based caster shifter but you are not taking great wisdom X which means you are losing DC on your abilities (never a good thing), you are taking AB feats which are not that useful on a caster shifter but not going con based which is optimal for a tanking shifter. Taking extra forms (dragon) and not going 'max power' on them severely limits their effectiveness as you'll never get abilities (read wing gusting). Intuitive attack seems like a good idea but in reality it won't help most of your 'tanky' forms as they will end up with higher str/dex than wis when shifted making it redundant.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 14, 2021 16:41:12 GMT
jelricle - nice! Good job getting this to viability...even if only in pre-hells levels! Out of curiosity: 1) you didn't have any issues (like, with gear) when using rogue skills while shifted? 2) was pickpocket any use to you?
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Post by jelricle on Dec 14, 2021 17:01:58 GMT
Yeah, this was pre-hells. I posted this as a memorial to the toon I am about to kill and reincarnate, since the build is just not up to snuff, anymore.
I wasn’t actually trying to achieve anything, beyond being able to handle the chests and search checks I was encountering while soloing. The build just evolved as I gained levels and learned about HG. I didn’t even know about craft armor’s benefit until well into Leroy’s life! :-D
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Post by jelricle on Dec 14, 2021 17:07:19 GMT
jelricle - nice! Good job getting this to viability...even if only in pre-hells levels! Out of curiosity: 1) you didn't have any issues (like, with gear) when using rogue skills while shifted? 2) was pickpocket any use to you? Rogue skills worked fine. I would turn into a kenku for a massive dex/open lock boost. Leonal rage boosted the final disable trap and search skill to have +50. I learned that the rage bonus sticks even if I transform back. I never actually used spill potion from the fairy form, but pick pocket allowed me to get into the rogue guild to sell augments. (Fairy form did let me to zoom through crowds of mobs. I would use the “Precious” ring for a brief GS then transform to fairy and fly away)
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Post by tomaan on Dec 15, 2021 1:22:30 GMT
Yeah, this was pre-hells. I posted this as a memorial to the toon I am about to kill and reincarnate, since the build is just not up to snuff, anymore. I wasn’t actually trying to achieve anything, beyond being able to handle the chests and search checks I was encountering while soloing. The build just evolved as I gained levels and learned about HG. I didn’t even know about craft armor’s benefit until well into Leroy’s life! :-D Well, it's no big secret that I like experimental (or challenge) builds - even if they don't work out you can sometimes pick up useful information/knowledge or lead you down paths you might not have considered. Hope this little excursion was useful for you!
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Post by jelricle on May 31, 2022 22:08:11 GMT
Just posted last edit - think I've taken this thought exercise as far as I want to for now. Will post again if I decide to playtest. With the minor bit of experience that I now have, I would throw a couple thoughts into the ring: - Triple foci should be in wild shape, then use the humanoid epode for triple humanoid focus. - I would not be as concerned about dexterity. Triple focus humanoid give Kenku form obscenely high dexterity for open locks and kobold is almost as high. Upping int for search and disable traps is more important, I think. - My Kobold has a lowly 42 DC for its traps, and yet it slaughters the mobs in LL runs and Oinos. Few mobs walk away from triggering 30 traps. Does anybody actually use the traps in Paragon runs, given all the mobs with kickback? (I mean, I do when I am seeing how far I can go, solo, but I am a newb and I go so painfully slowly that I can prep my immunities)
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Post by desocupado on Jun 2, 2022 19:18:02 GMT
There's solo multiplayer called multiboxing Usually a party with multiple people can get results by walking and killing. Besides the kickback, mobs tend to have near complete immunity to some elements, have widespread formation and randomized spawning. You could end up taking 2 minutes to setup 25 traps and no spawned mob takes their damage. Or the wrong mob triggers it for no effect or heavy party wide kickback.
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Post by jelricle on Jun 3, 2022 4:19:43 GMT
There's solo multiplayer called multiboxing Usually a party with multiple people can get results by walking and killing. Besides the kickback, mobs tend to have near complete immunity to some elements, have widespread formation and randomized spawning. You could end up taking 2 minutes to setup 25 traps and no spawned mob takes their damage. Or the wrong mob triggers it for no effect or heavy party wide kickback. Oh, I never use traps in paragon runs when I am with a group. I certainly learned that! (Sorry, again, Prep, for that Abo experiment!) Heh, I set up 36 to 42 traps, not 25 when I am soloing a tough map with my one toon! And only after scouting where the mobs are while in GS (set traps far enough away, then draw mobs to them) Like I said: Painfully slowly! Yeah, if my will power breaks and I start multiboxing, that is going to be the end of me! :-D
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