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Post by tomaan on Sept 23, 2020 17:16:13 GMT
EDIT: Build updated based on initial responses/feedback....EDIT #2: Final edit....may or may not playtest------------------------------------------- Noobs asking questions (thanks noobs!) got me thinking.....would this work? Haven't made it out of the test chamber, but.... Elf (Undying) Shifter 29 - Rogue 3 - Druid 8 -- rogue 1 at first level for extra skill points -- rogue 2 at level 18 to raise rogue skills over 20 (for ESF) and to take SF: OL and to get BAB to +14 -- rogue 3 at level 40 for skill dumpstats (-->+16, level 80, double demi)STR: 8 (10)-->32 Dex: 14 (18)-->40 Con: 12 (14)-->36 Int: 16 (18)-->46 Wis: 16 (18)-->60 Cha: 8 (10)-->32 -- 6 pts to Int, the rest to WisPre Epic Feats (no order): Bullheaded Awareness (req'd) Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (UAS) Greater Weapon Focus: UAS Improved Critical: UAS Heavy Armor Proficiency Skill Focus: Open Locks/Disable Traps/Search (or Toughness) Epic Feats (incl. shifter)Armor Skin Great Wisdom x6 Epic Weapon Focus: UAS Epic Prowess Epic Reflexes Epic Fort Epic Skill Focus - Open Locks Epic Skill Focus: Disable Traps Legendary FeatsLegendary Skill Affinity: Discipline Legendary Form Focus: Humanoid x3 Legendary Weapon Focus: UAS Legendary Form Defense Epic Skill Focus - Search Paragon FeatsParagon Weapon Focus: UAS Paragon Form Defense Paragon Form Focus: Humanoid Environmental Adaptivity x3 SkillsConcentration: 25 Discipline: 60 Disable Traps: 60 (86 @lvl60 +14 gear) Listen: 63 Open Locks: 60 (84 @lvl60 +14 gear) Parry: 43 Search: 60 (86 @lvl60, +14 gear) Tumble: 60 Craft Armor: 51 Craft Weapon: 63 UMD: 30 --increase hide and craft armor in paragon levels--rogue skills over max to account for penalties and suchstats at lvl 80, double demi, +16 gear, +50 skills Lizardfolk WhipmasterAB: 109 AC: 146 Fort: 73 Refl: 74 Will: 78 Kobold CommandoAC: 147 (60% concealment) AB: 109 Fort: 73 Refl: 93 Will: 78 Trap DC: 51 SahuaginAC: 141 AB: 105 Fort: 73 Refl: 71 Will: 78 Web DC: 49 ISSUES:1) lower AB and 1 less attack than ranger CC 2) gear-based discipline until LLs 3) nerfed DCs on Web, Trap and Drow MS 4) can't max parry in all forms without ESF: Parry (item or feat swap) OPTIONS:1) move points around for higher Con (hp) or Wis (DC) 2) reduce rogue skills by 2 pts each and increase base UMD to 48 3) reduce Int and drop either hide or craft armor to increase Wis and DCs 4) drop craft armor and increase Parry by +17 pts
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 17:28:37 GMT
If you can’t disable traps and open locks, there’s no point in doing it. It’s both or neither. I’d give up searching and get DT and OL. I also question the viability of getting that at level 60. And you cannot perform these features while shifted. Not worth pursuing in the slightest. If it’s ever going to be a thing for shifters it needs to be built into the Kobold Commando.
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Post by Methes on Sept 23, 2020 17:59:49 GMT
I think you mainly can't use picks while shifted so that's a no go currently. You'd have to also take ESF OL and DT or raise base Dex and Int significantly.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 23, 2020 18:20:38 GMT
You lose morph level - if you splash levels outside ranger druid shifter. The difference between PL 54 to PL 59/60 is huge. That character is useless. Low AB and AC.
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Post by tomaan on Sept 23, 2020 19:38:29 GMT
You lose morph level - if you splash levels outside ranger druid shifter. The difference between SL 54 to SL 59/60 is huge. That character is useless. Low AB and AC. it doesn't use any DC-related abilities (except maybe Kobold trap), hence so many levels of rogue splash. But yeah, that AB is concerning...
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Post by simpetar on Sept 23, 2020 20:01:52 GMT
The rogue numbers do check out, you will need +12 modifier to int to hit the cap on search and DT (easy enough with your starting stats, counting in the elf bonus and set trap synergy), you can even save some points if you use the vestige search stick and/or embroidered aug. For OL you might need to grab SF (or ESF if this isn't a lvl 80 reinc project) instead of Search; your starting dex is on the lower side. Kobold form will not help you whatsoever, you cannot use picks while shifted. Even mid LL runs like DB and thids need picks. The biggest drawback I see is only only 3 base attacks per round, you will have to pack a lot of Wraps. DC on abilities will be bit lower, but let's face it, there aren't many of those. Lizardfolk's strength is in inflictions and sahuagin's in free 2h damage with great defences, and dont forget kenku if you need ranged attacks (chaos rocs etc.) Not sure about why you took 6 rogue levels, it usually takes 1 + able learner does the rest of the job. Is it that tight on skills? A variant would be to grab ranger levels instead for the 4th attack and give up on DT + OL. Search is ranger class skill and you would not lose any polymorph level. That character is useless. Low AB and AC. Incorrect. Another display of ignorance about shifters and the game in general, thank you.
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Post by tomaan on Sept 23, 2020 22:14:18 GMT
Not sure about why you took 6 rogue levels, it usually takes 1 + able learner does the rest of the job. Is it that tight on skills? A variant would be to grab ranger levels instead for the 4th attack and give up on DT + OL. Search is ranger class skill and you would not lose any polymorph level. Yeah, very skill tight when trying to increase two cross-class skills. It still works with 1 level of Rogue, but 6 levels gets you at/around 100 in one more class skill Only reason I didn't splash ranger is because rogue skills are the primary goal of the build. I can squeeze in Disable Traps if I move points from Wis into Int, but don't know if I can max it. I can also use the extra Int for UMD (and abyss torch). updated the original post with the options. The biggest drawback I see is only only 3 base attacks per round EDIT: just realized that humanoid forms get an extra attack....updated original post to reflect the same.
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Post by tomaan on Sept 24, 2020 1:03:58 GMT
Updated build based on initial feedback and it's actually kinda sorta coming together. - Adjusted class mix to get an extra AB
- Moved points out of Wis and into Int and Dex
- Took ESF in three main rogue skills
- Dumped 41 points into Parry for some crit immunity
- Updated form stats to reflect level 80, +16 gear, double demi stats
It's an offensively nerfed shifter lash (lower AB, no disarm), but rogue skills will peak at 91 (DT), 93 (OL), and 93 (Search) unshifted in heavy armor + tower shield without +50 magic bonus (level 80, +16 gear, double-demi). UMD maxes at 91....should be enough for abyss torch?
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Post by simpetar on Sept 24, 2020 12:36:47 GMT
UMD maxes at 91....should be enough for abyss torch? It is enough for the oc/dc torch, dispel hat and if crit ring when you need it, however be mindful of layer penalties and make sure you have some +skills gear, such as asmo belt. It looks like you put 6 points into intelligence during leveling? There is not much point in getting rogue skills so high over the cap, especially if your build is this tight. 127 is the target number, you don't need to go any higher than that. At single demi with +14 gear, you are looking at 50 hard points in search / DT and 52 hard points into OL with the current stat/feat setup: search: 50 hard points + 10 ESF + 2 elf bonus + 15 int + 50 gear = 127 DT: 50 hard points + 10 ESF + 2 synergy from set trap (don't forget to take it) + 15 int + 50 gear = 127 OL: 52 hard points + 10 ESF + 3 SF + 12 dex + 50 gear = 127 You don't have to go for the full 63 points and save up 111 skill points to go somewhere else. Ofc, these numbers apply for single demi and +14 gear; as you get higher you can adjust them and reinc accordingly.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 24, 2020 16:26:57 GMT
You lose morph level - if you splash levels outside ranger druid shifter. The difference between SL 54 to SL 59/60 is huge. That character is useless. Low AB and AC. it doesn't use any DC-related abilities (except maybe Kobold trap), hence so many levels of rogue splash. But yeah, that AB is concerning... You'd a significant amount of shield ac and str/dex. The accronym was PL - polymorph level. PL 58 should lose about 2-4 of each, easy to offset with armor skin and weapon focus. Maybe a lash picker would make more sense since you are still losing about 5 DC.
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Post by tomaan on Sept 24, 2020 16:57:46 GMT
You'd a significant amount of shield ac and str/dex. The accronym was PL - polymorph level. PL 58 should lose about 2-4 of each, easy to offset with armor skin and weapon focus. I don't know about that. My latest working version ( not posted just posted) only has PL 57 - Lizardfolk shield AC still hits +29 with base (ie naked) STR at 60 and DEX at 20. Kobold Commando and Kenku have DEX of 59 and 64, resp. sounds interesting...you should post it!
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Post by tomaan on Sept 24, 2020 17:51:37 GMT
Just posted last edit - think I've taken this thought exercise as far as I want to for now. Will post again if I decide to playtest. At any rate, this build is playable to at least level 60 and I think into the Hells. How effective it would be remains to be seen. Rogue skills should be fine...even with layer penalties. I think you'd have to rely on Kobold traps (plan ahead!) and/or Sahaugin form to get damage output to a respectable tank level. Worst case scenario, you can always assist the party with Lizardfolk infliction. Latest updates: - Took Bullheaded instead of Tumble
- Reallocated skill points
- Adjusted class mix
- Added notes for leveling/class mix and skill points
At the end of the day, it might be better to splash a barb or ranger to get the rogue skills, but this turned out to be a pretty fun challenge.
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Post by jelricle on Jan 27, 2021 4:28:41 GMT
Okay, enter the newb with their questions!
Why do you only list 40 levels? (Shifter 29 - Rogue 3 - Druid 8) Is it just assumed that the next 40 are shifter levels?
What does "60 (86 @lvl60 +14 gear)" mean? Also, can't gear boost you up to +50?
I assume that AB and AC bonus from craft armor/weapon include bonus skill points from equipment and intelligence, rather than being like AC from tumble which only looks at raw tumble score. Even so, why boost craft armor/weapon to anything other than (multiples of 40) + (40 - your max int bonus)? If your final int is 46, then that is a total +18 bonus. Plus you can get +12 int from items for another +6 bonus, giving you a craft bonus of +24. Why not boost armor and weapon crafting to 56 instead of to 51 and 63? Are you counting on crafting bonus points from equipment? AC and AB mainly count in the middle of a fight; is there equipment with good crafting bonus that is worth wearing in the middle of a fight? (the possible +1 to AC and AB that I have seen in crafting bonus from equipment has not yet been worth sacrificing combat bonuses from other equipment)
Ugh, What is the highest DC traps and locks people have encountered? - You can get +70 to your skill check from equipment and taking 20. If I keep my ranger build, next reincarnation, I can get up to 41 without skill focus feats. That is a base of 111. - Add in int bonus on an int of 56 (base of 46 plus 12 from equipment) and you have another +24 to search and disable trap; this gives a total of 135 search and disable traps (Effectively 125 unless we convince Funky to let Kobold commandoes disable DC 35+ traps) - Dexterity for Kenku is 75 (base 63 + 12 from equipment) for another +32 to open locks; this gives a total of 143 open lock.
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Post by chainlink on Jan 27, 2021 7:39:13 GMT
Some of this information is easily searchable on the boards here e.g. 'A character's control class is the class in which the character has the most levels. If two classes tie for having the most, the class the character took first will be the control class.'
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Post by gatsu83ita on Jan 27, 2021 8:37:11 GMT
I assume that AB and AC bonus from craft armor/weapon include bonus skill points from equipment and intelligence, rather than being like AC from tumble which only looks at raw tumble score. Even so, why boost craft armor/weapon to anything other than (multiples of 40) + (40 - your max int bonus)? If your final int is 46, then that is a total +18 bonus. Plus you can get +12 int from items for another +6 bonus, giving you a craft bonus of +24. Why not boost armor and weapon crafting to 56 instead of to 51 and 63? Are you counting on crafting bonus points from equipment? AC and AB mainly count in the middle of a fight; is there equipment with good crafting bonus that is worth wearing in the middle of a fight? (the possible +1 to AC and AB that I have seen in crafting bonus from equipment has not yet been worth sacrificing combat bonuses from other equipment) You usually put more points to offset Layer penality, and keep in mind that bard song will boost your skills with +21 (with maxed song level). Int 46 from the sheet is already counting bonus from gear and demi status (+16 from items, level 80 (2 more points), double demi (2+2 more)). With 63 (base) + 18 (int) = 81! This will be boosted by bard song/gear but lowered by layer penality. But you have (cant remember exactly) +1/+2 from completing PreLL tags and +5/+10 from demix5/demix6.
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