Flatfoot sucks

[xakila]

*edit* upon looking up more on game mechanics I hadn't noticed before on other servers do to not playing casters perhaps idea isn't that great. *edit*

Personally in nwn I've always had a problem with how flatfoot was implemented, especially the many ways that thematically wouldnt make sense flatfoot can happen (path gets blocked, lag, in-combat pauses, etc...). Makes no sense to me it's safer to spam quillfire toe to toe while a mob to not flatfoot while i take .5 seconds to look away from my toon to see the battle.

And I'm noticing as druid flatfoot can hurt fast (often insta death for me at 62 before I even see what happens).

Unless the dm's enjoy the flatfooted madness I have a possibly very easy solution that opens up a few build options for casters besides splashing 2-3 levels for an uncanny dodge class.

---Would it be possible (if not deemed out of balance) to add the uncanny dodge effect to either the dodge feat or blind fight feats (or both)?

This could cover up engine wackiness and give options in builds by either taking the feats or pandect/dragon blood/item feats.

Just a thought, in nwn I've never bothered with ac toons that didn't have uncanny and thematically it makes little sense that a monster i am aware of can catch me flatfooted due to non-glacially slow reaction times trying to assess a chaotic battle, especially here where i can't just wack at a monster (kickback etc) for a second while i hit tab and check out the battle field for .5 seconds without noticing I'm dead.

Noticing at least a few people avoiding playing casters and this might help a tiny bit with that.

Just my 2cents, great mod btw this is what I always envisioned nwn could be.

Xak

[Lil' Mikey (Msowby2)]

Combating FF'ness has always been something very important strategy wise, esp considering HG and the high ab of most mobs in the epic levels. My best piece of advice is to start melee'ing something if you are unfamiliar with a spawn/learning the ropes of a druid. Melee+Defensive casting will save your life single boxing most of the time- esp considering how high druid's AC gets. Just make sure not to melee something that does party KB damage (machines, colds etc). Another tactic is spamming heal pots (same concept) while you assess the battle and it's tactics.

In short, flatfoot has always been a thing everywhere and is a game mechanic. The more experience you get with runs the most prepared you'll be for spawns and know what to do, but in the meantime follow those two pieces of advice and ask questions if you have any pertaining to the run. It is also helpful to know which mobs mord/breach/dispell and plan accordingly since mere AC can be counteracted by rolling 20s.

[Methes]

As Mikey says, it's a game mechanic you have to learn how to counter. Being flatfooted is usually a sign of not enough experience playing a character or not paying enough attention.

Your proposition is also flawed by lack of experience. Consider this - uncanny dodge only retains your dexterity bonus to AC. However, being flatfooted makes you lose Dexterity, Dodge and Tumble AC bonuses. So even with uncanny dodge you still lose 26-32 AC which gets you killed in an instant, making uncanny dodge worthless in high level areas.
Also, when disabled (knocked down, stunned, entangled, blinded etc) you get flatfooted. Removing flatfootness would have far greater impacts than you think.

You complain about playing a druid. There are two spells you should check out, Tortoise Shell and Fundation of Stone. Raj explains these extensively in his TreeLaLa build

The only think I dislike about flatfoot is that enemies that have JUST spawned are considered unseen by your character and therefor you are flatfooted in relation to them even when doing any action (usually running - spawning). This is especially painful with enemy archers who can shred you to pieces in their first volley - a (faulty) mechanic first visible in Plains of War spawns.

[xakila]

Tldr: NWNs implementation of flatfoot is flawed but possibly very easy to work around, and is "unrealistic."

I was under the impression that you only lost dodge/tumble ac in situatuons where you lost your dex bonus, so those two ac parts (and wis) were tied to losing dex bonus itself. On other servers on ac based toons I've never noticed an ac drop when i had uncanny even when standing there afk... With hundreds of hours of nwn experience my lack is of the experience of not having uncanny, but i may have missed something during that time.

Playing on an older pc, so flatfoot sometimes happens during lag/graphics hiccups and other situations such as path getting blocked by a moving mob etc. And .5 seconds of flatfoot can be death especially when I have died and lost buffs already.

Yes it can be worked around with a bit of hassle if you juggle it well, but it is a mostly unneccessary mechanic (afaik in computer games unique to nwn) that is flawed in implementation once combat has begun, even by dnd terms. And possibly easy to code feat tweaks can improve gameplay experience a ton for many people without unbalancing the game itself.

Not trying to complain as much as as suggest possibly easy tweaks to improve the gameplay experience. And if its a minor 20 minutes of less bit of code that's not considered op or unbalancing and just improves gameplay experience for many players over the years is it that bad of a suggestion?

If it's too strong an ability for a useful feat like blindfight or a req feat like dodge (almost pointless on it's own at high levels), maybe put it combat casting feat (without having to activate the mode,just tag the the effect to having the feat...who takes cc as it is?) or maybe even epic reflexes if its more an epic level QoL ability, I personally feel that blindfight is the best fit.

I personally would love some feat based uncanny dodge rather than splashing otherwise unneeded class. And I'd make room for a feat rather than dealing with the less than optimal flatfoot implementation in nwn.

It's just the way its coded in nwn that has flaws, which seems like could be perhaps easily worked around rather than just just going with what is. Personally once combat has begun (aka you can't rest) I don't think flatfoot should be a thing unless you're blind or kd, even in dnd you don't have to announce that you are acting defensively or aware that battle is going on around you every few seconds to assume you're not just standing there thinking about flowers right?



And in gameplay realism sense does it make sense that i would be flatfooted by a mob swinging at me from behind but not if i was casting at a mob across the screen still with my back to that same mob?

And yes still getting the hang of combat maneuvering and casting, just been a ton to get used to in the chaos of hells and backspawns. But nwns implementation is more a pain than a realistic feature, and imho not well implemented.

[condude]

Oct 11, 2020 23:35:44 GMT xakila said:

I was under the impression that you only lost dodge/tumble ac in situatuons where you lost your dex bonus, so those two ac parts (and wis) were tied to losing dex bonus itself.

Methes is definitely right, uncanny dodge doesn't retain dodge or tumble AC. In the late game, losing 20 dodge AC by itself is easily enough to make many people get hit on everything but a 1. Add on the tumble, and uncanny dodge is almost completely worthless for the vast majority of characters.

Even if it it would work, randomly negating the entire flatfooted mechanic seems like it is a strict power bump for a lot of characters in a relatively boring way.

[xakila]

edited above comment to reflect my experience (granted on tanks rather than squishies) with uncanny, but am definitely not an expert on the mechanical aspect. Looking at nwn wiki i do see what yer saying about dodge/tumble tho. Really never noticed a diff on toons with uncanny dodge on other servers but being new to ac casters I can see why.

I still stand by my opinion that flatfoot isn't implemented that well but that is an opinion ofc.

[xakila]

Oct 11, 2020 23:35:44 GMT xakila said:

Tldr: NWNs implementation of flatfoot is flawed but possibly very easy to work around, and is "unrealistic."

*edited* based on uncertainty on game mechanics so not as much a fix as i hoped*

I was under the impression that you only lost dodge/tumble ac in situatuons where you lost your dex bonus, so those two ac parts (and wis, unless all wis bonus's are like monks) were tied to losing dex bonus itself. On other servers on ac based toons I've never noticed an ac drop when i had uncanny even when standing there in between mobs... with hundreds of hours of nwn experience *edit*(granted on non-caster toons who were usually engaged or on way to engagement, but never noticed the difference when just standing there)*edit*

Playing on an older pc, so flatfoot sometimes happens during lag/graphics hiccups and other situations such as path getting blocked by a moving mob etc. And .5 seconds of flatfoot can be death especially when I have died and lost buffs already.

Yes it can be worked around with a bit of hassle if you juggle it well, but it is a mostly unneccessary mechanic (afaik in computer games unique to nwn) that is flawed in implementation once combat has begun, even by dnd terms. And possibly easy to code feat tweaks can improve gameplay experience a ton for many people without unbalancing the game itself.

Not trying to complain as much as as suggest possibly easy tweaks to improve the gameplay experience. And if its a minor 20 minutes of less bit of code that's not considered op or unbalancing and just improves gameplay experience for many players over the years is it that bad of a suggestion?

If it's too strong an ability for a useful feat like blindfight or a req feat like dodge (almost pointless on it's own at high levels), maybe put it combat casting feat (without having to activate the mode,just tag the the effect to having the feat...who takes cc as it is?) or maybe even epic reflexes if its more an epic level QoL ability, I personally feel that blindfight is the best fit.

I personally would love some feat based uncanny dodge rather than splashing otherwise unneeded class. And I'd make room for a feat rather than dealing with the less than optimal flatfoot implementation in nwn.

It's just the way its coded in nwn that has flaws, which seems like could be perhaps easily worked around rather than just just going with what is. Personally once combat has begun (aka you can't rest) I don't think flatfoot should be a thing unless you're blind or kd, even in dnd you don't have to announce that you are acting defensively or aware that battle is going on around you every few seconds to assume you're not just standing there thinking about flowers right?



And in gameplay realism sense does it make sense that i would be flatfooted by a mob swinging at me from behind but not if i was casting at a mob across the screen still with my back to that same mob?

And yes still getting the hang of combat maneuvering and casting, just been a ton to get used to in the chaos of hells and backspawns. But nwns implementation is more a pain than a realistic feature, and imho not well implemented.

[desocupado]

What about removing flatfoot entirely?

[Deleted]

It works as presently constituted, and for a lot of people. As Condude said, a huge buff to a lot of people, making a handful of spells / abilities worthless, etc. for something that with experience, practice, and interaction in game and in situations in the game, can be entirely negated.

[xakila]

that would make nwn an even better game imho, hard to implement dnd flatfoot in a fluid way, more a nasty inconvenience than a logical flavour mechanic the way it works out.

Finally got the hg loader working through arf so will see how much actually being able to see the whole battlefield without moving camera around constantly helps, the max zoom before was just complicating the learning curve for me.

Personally if it wasn't too hard I'd just remove flatfoot once you are in combat radius (same as being too close to rest) unless you are blind or KD but that's probably harder to code than the feat suggestions I thought would work (but might be better than nothing).

[desocupado]

Oct 12, 2020 1:04:26 GMT @prepared said:

It works as presently constituted, and for a lot of people. As Condude said, a huge buff to a lot of people, making a handful of spells / abilities worthless, etc. for something that with experience, practice, and interaction in game and in situations in the game, can be entirely negated.

Does It create any fun?

[Deleted]

I like the fact I have to be on my game, versus just being able to stand there knowing I have 140+ AC and imms and it require no active effort. A game should require the user to be engaged, either in performing an action (casting, an ability, attacking) or at minimum engaged with a foe trying to engage them. Why are we trying to neuter a facet of the game that isn't broken?

[xakila]

Oct 12, 2020 1:11:05 GMT desocupado said:

Oct 12, 2020 1:04:26 GMT @prepared said:

It works as presently constituted, and for a lot of people. As Condude said, a huge buff to a lot of people, making a handful of spells / abilities worthless, etc. for something that with experience, practice, and interaction in game and in situations in the game, can be entirely negated.

Does It create any fun?

I can see how the reward of working it out and overcoming the challenge can be fun actually, and hopefully get to that point. Gotta work on the reflexes a bit more haven't gamed much in a few years and ageing is silly.

Now that I can zoom further out should be much more manageable, will see how computer hiccups and or lag affects it. Hopefully I get used to how activating combat casting mode works, guess I gotta click attack on something and wait to cast until it turns on if I don't have room to maneuver and can't activate it between spells or potions without standing still a second. Would be supersweet if it was a true toggle or at least could be queued up easier.

How do people manage the run in and queue combat casting when dealing with clustered fights or mobs with big hitboxes?

[simpetar]

Oct 12, 2020 3:47:07 GMT xakila said:

Now that I can zoom further out should be much more manageable, will see how computer hiccups and or lag affects it. Hopefully I get used to how activating combat casting mode works, guess I gotta click attack on something and wait to cast until it turns on if I don't have room to maneuver and can't activate it between spells or potions without standing still a second. Would be supersweet if it was a true toggle or at least could be queued up easier.

How do people manage the run in and queue combat casting when dealing with clustered fights or mobs with big hitboxes?

Unless I am terribly mistaken, true toggleable combat modes are part of EE. The dev team is working hard on plugins for HG to be accessible from EE. That alone will reduce druid mortality rate by leaps and bounds (always having DCM and stuff). That being said, I don't think FF is clumsy in NWN implementation, or necessarily flawed. In TT DnD you have to declare your actions in combat, here you actually have to do them; combat in a video game is much more fluid and somewhat unforgiving, so you are not really allowed any brainfarts. And yes, that applies even to archers, that is why (at least in end-game) you pack some druid in the group and employ LoS strategies. NWN (and HG as its extension) has some bugged and imperfect systems, but FF is not one of them.

[Methes]

Oct 12, 2020 1:11:05 GMT desocupado said:

Oct 12, 2020 1:04:26 GMT @prepared said:

It works as presently constituted, and for a lot of people. As Condude said, a huge buff to a lot of people, making a handful of spells / abilities worthless, etc. for something that with experience, practice, and interaction in game and in situations in the game, can be entirely negated.

Does It create any fun?

Yes it does. It makes you actively engage in playing your character rather than click and go make a tea. It forces you to pay attention, to predict future character actions and makes the combat system feel more present and dangerous.